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Brexit matters

RT4038

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Wrong.

EU did not exist then.

What existed then was, what brexiters call “free trading area” or “common market “, which they claim , they were happy to stay in before brexit.

What they do not admit, is that by leaving SM and CU , we left what they wanted to stay inside of .

That is just idiotic.
I don't think that is a valid comparision. The conditions for membership of the SM and CU when the UK joined the EEC were very different to that appertaining to membership now.
I daresay that if the UK could have the EEC conditions now we would still be a member, but the EU superstate project has moved on and, quite understandably, these conditions are no longer available.
 
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najaB

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I don't think that is a valid comparision. The conditions for membership of the SM and CU when the UK joined the EEC were very different to that appertaining to membership now.
It's a good thing that absolutely everything else in the world is exactly the same as it was in 1974 then, isn't it?
 

RT4038

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It's a good thing that absolutely everything else in the world is exactly the same as it was in 1974 then, isn't it?
A person's view on the changes to the EEC/EU since 1974 in comparison to the changes in the rest of the world will assist in determining their view towards Brexit, I presume.
 

simonw

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I don't think that is a valid comparision. The conditions for membership of the SM and CU when the UK joined the EEC were very different to that appertaining to membership now.
I daresay that if the UK could have the EEC conditions now we would still be a member, but the EU superstate project has moved on and, quite understandably, these conditions are no longer available.
The single market - the creation of which was driven and shaped by Thatcher didn't exist in 1974.
 

edwin_m

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Indeed. Uneducated with respect to what the EU is and does, but most people who support(ed) Brexit aren't stupid.
The average person doesn't need to know such details and has better things to do than to spend time understanding them. Which is why they would rely on others to explain the issues, and it's particularly important that the campaigns don't distort the truth.
 

berneyarms

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re number 4, remember that the Irish voted against the Treaty of Nice, first time round. This is not a specific prediction that Ireland will vote out - although if I was Irish I'd be worried about the lack of democracy in the Article 16 episode - but the point is that a lot can change over 20 years...
It is important to remember that while Ireland voted against Nice the first time, changes were then made in the treaty which facilitated a positive vote.

As for the current, I don't see any appetite here for a move against EU membership in Ireland, but you can be sure that procedures will be put in place in Brussels to ensure that the debacle of a fortnight ago doesn't happen again.
 

37424

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I don't think that is a valid comparision. The conditions for membership of the SM and CU when the UK joined the EEC were very different to that appertaining to membership now.
I daresay that if the UK could have the EEC conditions now we would still be a member, but the EU superstate project has moved on and, quite understandably, these conditions are no longer available.
Indeed I think some who voted remain including myself have little time for Brussels, the EU parliament or any further integration, and as Brussels has further developed the general population has had very little say about it.

I would happy for the UK to be in the Single Market but there would need to be concessions on Freedom of Movement, Customs Union would create issues with doing our own trade deals and I think if we are going to be out of the EU then we need that ability or at least try it for a few years. Either way there is no chance of any of those things happening with the current government.
 

radamfi

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It is important to remember that while Ireland voted against Nice the first time, changes were then made in the treaty which facilitated a positive vote.

As for the current, I don't see any appetite here for a move against EU membership in Ireland, but you can be sure that procedures will be put in place in Brussels to ensure that the debacle of a fortnight ago doesn't happen again.

It is bizarre that English make such stereotypical jokes about the Irish, yet the Irish have proved they are far less stupid than English people. How can there be such a difference in attitude to the EU between England and Ireland given the supposedly similar culture? It's a no-brainer for British people to move to Ireland now but so few have done it.
 
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edwin_m

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It is bizarre that English make such stereotypical jokes about the Irish, yet the Irish have proved they are far less stupid than English people. How can there be such a difference in attitude to the EU between England and Ireland given the supposedly similar culture? It's a no-brainer for British people to move to Ireland now but so few have done it.
Perhaps the Irish don't want all those British people, particularly the ones with no brains.
 

radamfi

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Perhaps the Irish don't want all those British people, particularly the ones with no brains.

Maybe Ireland will block free movement with England in the future, especially if there's a united Ireland?
 

alex397

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Perhaps the Irish don't want all those British people, particularly the ones with no brains.
I can’t imagine the ones with no brains would move to Ireland. I can imagine there could be a slight “brain drain” from the UK moving to Ireland, particularly those who will benefit more from EU membership, such as for business and academia, and just to have the benefit of an EU passport.
 

edwin_m

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The UK and Ireland have free movement so a UK citizen can live and work there, but it appears that unless you have a family connection, you have to have five years residency to qualify for citizenship and therefore an EU passport.
 

RT4038

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It is bizarre that English make such stereotypical jokes about the Irish, yet the Irish have proved they are far less stupid than English people.
Perhaps the stupidity has been with those who have been blinded by the light of the EU, those who didn't see Brexit coming from a long way off, and those who chose to be dismissive of the issues in contention, and did nothing or little in mitigation.
How can there be such a difference in attitude to the EU between England and Ireland given the supposedly similar culture?
Perhaps that Ireland is a net consumer of EU funds, whereas the UK was a net contributor?
It's a no-brainer for British people to move to Ireland now but so few have done it.
Maybe Ireland will block free movement with England in the future, especially if there's a united Ireland?
I really doubt that the English will decamp en-masse to Ireland. It doesn't take much brains to realise that moving countries in order to obtain the advantages of EU citizenship is not really on the radar of the average British person.
 

317 forever

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Nobody, but not sure what that has to do with anything.
Also the Queen does not decide on or vote on any government policy.

I don't think I would ever associate the word 'give' with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster ('take', maybe, but you won't know that he has done so). He's a slippery character at the best of times, you think he has put forward a coherent argument, then five minutes later 'hold on' and you realise it was built on sand, but the interview is over and he is on his way. He's the Prince of Plausible.

From the article, either a degree at Oxford is not a guarantee of any level of common sense or the words of our Minister for the Cabinet Office are not worth a sou. This is the second time that this government has signed treaties with the EU, and decided, within months, that it didn't mean what they thought it did. I take more care over buying home insurance than they take over the future of the country. I think we ought to know how many ministers took out PPI.

Border between GB and NI - Maybe they ought to have listened to the words of the MP for Maidenhead (the Rt Hon Lady May) instead of stabbing her in the back. She knew!
Not only did the MP for Maidenhead know. The former MPs for Huntingdon and Sedgefield warned us that a Leave vote would cause problems for NI.

Wrong.

EU did not exist then.

What existed then was, what brexiters call “free trading area” or “common market “, which they claim , they were happy to stay in before brexit.

What they do not admit, is that by leaving SM and CU , we left what they wanted to stay inside of .

That is just idiotic.
Given that the CU was pretty much the same as the (former) EEC, and we voted to remain in the EEC in 1975, we should have remained in the CU upon leaving the EU.
 
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RT4038

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Given that the CU was pretty much the same as the (former) EEC, and we voted to remain in the EEC in 1975, we should have remained in the CU upon leaving the EU.
Was leaving the SM but not the CU a practicable scenario? I think they are intertwined?
Not only did the MP for Maidenhead know. The former MPs for Huntingdon and Sedgefield warned us that a Leave vote would cause problems for NI.
The current Government full well knew this too. Brexit leaving the SM/CU renders the NI border an intractable problem. But were they going to let the NI border stop departure from the SM/CU? No. So a bodge was agreed, pretty much know that it wouldn't work, got Brexit done on 1.1.20, and then try and sort it out after the fait accompli. Remember, this was a one-time opportunity to Brexit - get bogged down and probably never get another chance.

Far from not knowing what they were signing....
 

najaB

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Was leaving the SM but not the CU a practicable scenario? I think they are intertwined?
While it wouldn't have made much sense, I can't see any reason why not.

In other news, it's been confirmed that Brexit will hurt the EU more than the UK. (It's opposite day!)

 
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XAM2175

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Also the Queen does not decide on or vote on any government policy.
Funnily enough, she actually does!

What is Queen's consent?​

Queen's consent is a little-known procedure whereby the government asks the monarch's permission for parliament to be able to debate laws that affect her. Unlike royal assent, which is a formality that takes place at the end of the process of drafting a bill, Queen's consent takes place before parliament is permitted to debate the legislation.
Consent has to be sought for any legislation affecting either the royal prerogative – fundamental powers of state, such as the ability to declare war – or the assets of the crown, such as the royal palaces. Buckingham Palace says the procedure also covers assets that the monarch owns privately, such as the estates of Sandringham and Balmoral.
If parliamentary lawyers decide that a bill requires consent, a government minister writes to the Queen formally requesting her permission for parliament to debate it. A copy of the bill is sent to the Queen's private lawyers, who have 14 days to consider it and to advise her.
If the Queen grants her consent, parliament can debate the legislation and the process is formally signified in Hansard, the record of parliamentary debates. If the Queen withholds consent, the bill cannot proceed and parliament is in effect banned from debating it.

And of particular note:
As part of a series investigating the use of the consent procedure, the Guardian has published documents from the National Archives that reveal the Queen has on occasions used the procedure to privately lobby the government.
The investigation uncovered evidence suggesting that she used the procedure to persuade government ministers to change a 1970s transparency law in order to conceal her private wealth from the public.
The documents also show that on other occasions the monarch’s advisers demanded exclusions from proposed laws relating to road safety and land policy that appeared to affect her estates, and pressed for government policy on historic sites to be altered.
 

daodao

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Brexit leaving the SM/CU renders the NI border an intractable problem.
In the long-term, the obvious hard border between England and the EU is along the Solway Firth/Cheviots/River Tweed, and the Irish border problem will be solved by a united Ireland incorporating all 32 counties. Offa's Dyke is more problematic.
 

RT4038

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While it wouldn't have made much sense, I can't see any reason why not.
I do not think that the option was available without conditions that were central to Brexit anyway.

In the long-term, the obvious hard border between England and the EU is along the Solway Firth/Cheviots/River Tweed, and the Irish border problem will be solved by a united Ireland incorporating all 32 counties. Offa's Dyke is more problematic.
Intractable as in not going to be solved in 2020. The longer term is speculation, and circumstances can change, as they have done since the EEC morphed into the EU.
 

najaB

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Intractable as in not going to be solved in 2020. The longer term is speculation, and circumstances can change, as they have done since the EEC morphed into the EU.
Agreed that all things are possible, but the direction of movement has been towards the breakup of the UK for a while (in at least Irish reunification, if not Scottish independence) and the nature of the Brexit that the HM Government has sought only helps to accelerate that motion.
 

21C101

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More winning.

It is mostly low-margin like trading in equities. There is no profit in this, and not many jobs. Most of it is being done by branches of London outfits that have been set up in Amsterdam.

In any case the EU refusing to grant equivalence is likely, if tested, to be found to be a breach of international law
the non-discrimination principle of the World Trade Organisation Article VII of General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS).

This seems to get ever nearer.

 
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najaB

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It is mostly low-margin like trading in equities. There is no profit in this, and not many jobs. Most of it is being done by branches of London outfits that have been set up in Amsterdam.
Even if the profit margins are thin, when you're talking billions it adds up. And it's profits being earned (and taxed) in the EU rather than London.
In any case the EU refusing to grant equivalence is likely, if tested, to be found to be a breach of international law
the non-discrimination principle of the World Trade Organisation Article VII of General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS).
I rather think that this is more based on hope than any principle of law. I cannot find any sources that support your argument that don't also display serious right-wing, pro-Brexit bias. Perhaps you might oblige?
 

21C101

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. I cannot find any sources that support your argument that don't also display serious right-wing, pro-Brexit bias. Perhaps you might oblige?
oh well they're obviously disqualified then, because right wing pro brexit commentators are always wrong, just like theyv'e been wrong about everything from referendum result predicting to whether or not to join the EU joint vaccine programme.
 

najaB

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oh well they're obviously disqualified then, because right wing pro brexit commentators are always wrong, just like theyv'e been wrong about everything from referendum result predicting to whether or not to join the EU joint vaccine programme.
If it is likely as you claim, then it shouldn't be too hard to find an unbiased source that agrees, no?
 

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