Bring back british rail!

[150222]

I noticed earlier in the vestibule of the middle carriage of 158758 that someone had stuck a sticker on an information poster over the northern logo. It was a back-to-front BR logo with the web address bringbackbritishrail.org. Does anyone else support this?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Too right!
Everything the old BR workers said pre privatization has happened, and cost everyone a fortune.
BR was far from perfect, but a hell of a lot better than we have now.

 

[Greenback]

Yes.

But a lot of people will disagree. The difficulty with each point of view is that it's impossible to know what would have happened if BR had not been privatised. Maybe the rail network would still have cost the same amount to run as it does now if BR were still in existence. We will never know for sure.

It does seem, though, that what was promised to be the benefits of privatisation have not come to pass.

 

[snail]

I used to think that until I saw a rerun of the 1996 Great Railway Journeys programme where Victoria Wood travels around the north of England and Scotland. Run down trains on a run down network, with little hope for the future.

Privatisation was done very badly but it did bring much needed investment and got people back on to the trains. But like Greenback says, we don't know what would have happened had BR been given the kind of investment we are seeing in today's railway.

 

[Greenback]

I used to think that until I saw a rerun of the 1996 Great Railway Journeys programme where Victoria Wood travels around the north of England and Scotland. Run down trains on a run down network, with little hope for the future.

Privatisation was done very badly but it did bring much needed investment and got people back on to the trains.

The onl yinvestment I've noticed is that which comes from government via Network Rail and from franchises, which normally result in mor egenerous terms to the franchisee in exchange for their commitments.

Again, it's hypothetical, but what could BR have done with this 'investment', given that they didn't have sharehodlers to pay, or twenty odd chief execs earning £400000 a time?

 

[Trog]

Its too late you can not un-scramble an egg.

The BR type staff are largely gone, and there is no way to get the H&S and 5 minute managers fangs out of the railways body.

 

[JamesHorrell]

this is there Facebook Page
http://www.facebook.com/#!/bringbackbritishrail

 

[Greenback]

Its too late you can not un-scramble an egg.

The BR type staff are largely gone, and there is no way to get the H&S and 5 minute managers fangs out of the railways body.

I would support the return of BR, but that doesn't mean I think it would ever happen!

 

[Greeby]

Nationalisation vs privatisation is a false choice. If the best these people can come up with is to hand the railways from one set of greedy, profit-driven idiots who know nothing about the railways to another set of greedy, profit-driven idiots who know nothing about the railways. Then don't waste everyone's time

 

[HSTEd]

Its too late you can not un-scramble an egg.

The BR type staff are largely gone, and there is no way to get the H&S and 5 minute managers fangs out of the railways body.

Well you could eliminate director level entry into the company and require everyone to start at the bottom.

I would support a return to BR but it will never occur in the current political climate that is fundementally trapped in the belief that the private sector must always provide a better service at lower cost than the public sector.

 

[SS4]

I would support it. Privatisation has not been without it's benefits but I don't think private companies should own any infrastructure (transports, power, utilities etc) - that is the state's job.

 

[Old Timer]

Well you could eliminate director level entry into the company and require everyone to start at the bottom.

I would support a return to BR but it will never occur in the current political climate that is fundementally trapped in the belief that the private sector must always provide a better service at lower cost than the public sector.

So IF that is the case, why is it that the most efficient and best Railway systems in the World for passenger satisfaction are those which are operated Privately ?

 

[AlterEgo]

The BR type staff are largely gone

What are "BR-type" staff, out of interest? Is the fact that "they" are gone a wholly bad thing?

 

[HSTEd]

So IF that is the case, why is it that the most efficient and best Railway systems in the World for passenger satisfaction are those which are operated Privately ?

Deutsche Bahn: State Owned
SNCF: State Owned
SBB/CFF/FFS: State Owned
OBB: State Owned

The list goes on, the only highly efficient large passenger railways in the world that are privately operated (admittedly only the ones I can think of) are in Japan and those are a result of a privatisation brought on by the government requiring the railawy to build unneccesary infrastructure for political reasons while refusing to foot the bill themselves.

 

[Old Timer]

Deutsche Bahn: State Owned
SNCF: State Owned
SBB/CFF/FFS: State Owned
OBB: State Owned

The list goes on, the only highly efficient large passenger railways in the world that are privately operated (admittedly only the ones I can think of) are in Japan and those are a result of a privatisation brought on by the government requiring the railawy to build unneccesary infrastructure for political reasons while refusing to foot the bill themselves.

Oh dont be so silly.

Some of the Railways you have quoted have been set up as autonomous units operating outside direct Government control. Amazingly they also follow the UK form of privatisation structure, although not yet privatised. Something which then rather contradicts your original assertions.

With respect, you can only think of efficient privatised railways systems in Japan because of your lack of knowledge and having failed to research the subject properly. May I suggest you try Hong Kong ?

The last trains I travelled on in Germany were late, and there was much grumbling about the Railways there now.

 

[HSTEd]

Oh dont be so silly.

Some of the Railways you have quoted have been set up as autonomous units operating outside direct Government control. Amazingly they also follow the UK form of privatisation structure, although not yet privatised. Something which then rather contradicts your original assertions.

With respect, you can only think of efficient privatised railways systems in Japan because of your lack of knowledge and having failed to research the subject properly. May I suggest you try Hong Kong ?

The last trains I travelled on in Germany were late, and there was much grumbling about the Railways there now.

The MTR Corporation is more of an overgrown metro transport system than a true railway system, and I do note that it is still majority owned by the Government of Hong Kong (76% according to Wiki).

I wasn't aware of Swiss Federal railways having a separate infrastructure operator at the current time.

Im also not against the railway being independent of day to day government control, I'm against major infrastructure and public transport being held by and operated for the profit of the private sector when these businesses do not normal manaeg to operate at a profit.

 

[WestCoast]

The last trains I travelled on in Germany were late, and there was much grumbling about the Railways there now.

DB is now publishing detailed punctuality statistics on their website and although the figures are recorded in a different way to the UK, punctuality is around the same level for long-distance services and slightly better for regional services.

Mind you, it's a bit of a game really. It's argued the UK should learn from French and German systems, the German users say their system should learn from the Swiss, the Swiss say they should learn from the Japanese. I could go on and on...

 

[DiscoStu]

The last trains I travelled on in Germany were late, and there was much grumbling about the Railways there now.

And the last trains I traveled on in Germany were spot on time ... that doesn't prove anything.

 

[Holly]

So IF that is the case, why is it that the most efficient and best Railway systems in the World for passenger satisfaction are those which are operated Privately ?

It's called cherry-picking and baksheesh.

But you knew that.

 

[Old Timer]

..Im also not against the railway being independent of day to day government control, I'm against major infrastructure and public transport being held by and operated for the profit of the private sector when these businesses do not normal manaeg to operate at a profit.

In which case I am completely at a loss.

Because what you are suggesting is full Privatisation, something which I now believe in fervently, having moved from the BR modell over the years and with the benefit of seeing, and inded working on, systems where there is complete vertical integration, and Government control only in respect of safety and standards oversight.

In both South and North America, new railways are being/have been built by private operators some as part of a Governmental transpot strategy. Others in Africa are being built purely by private mining companies to serve new mines, which in turn provides much needed economic growth and jobs to the indigenous population.

The only true Government controlled Railways were in the former Soviet Union, and of course curently India, but the FSU has been destroyed, and India is moving towards private investment at a great rate of knots.

It's called cherry-picking and baksheesh.

But you knew that.

Documented source for this please, otherwise it will be ignored as disingenuity in the lack of a sustainable proposition.

 

[HSTEd]

In which case I am completely at a loss.

Because what you are suggesting is full Privatisation, something which I now believe in fervently, having moved from the BR modell over the years and with the benefit of seeing, and inded working on, systems where there is complete vertical integration, and Government control only in respect of safety and standards oversight.

In both South and North America, new railways are being/have been built by private operators some as part of a Governmental transpot strategy. Others in Africa are being built purely by private mining companies to serve new mines, which in turn provides much needed economic growth and jobs to the indigenous population.

The only true Government controlled Railways were in the former Soviet Union, and of course curently India, but the FSU has been destroyed, and India is moving towards private investment at a great rate of knots.

Wait what? How does having an independent railway in the public sector with government (acting as the shareholder) and non governmental oversight (enabled by things such as FOIA and investigative journalism) equal full privatisation?
A privately owned railway exists for only one reason, that is to generate profit, therefore it should not be put in charge of a system which cannot realistically operate at an overall profit, let alone operate lines which are currently believed to be socially necessary at one.

Currently private investment in the passenger operations on British railways comes in at roughly £500million per year, according to the ORR, which is roughly 10% of current government subsidy.

 

[Old Timer]

Wait what? How does having an independent railway in the public sector with government (acting as the shareholder) and non governmental oversight (enabled by things such as FOIA and investigative journalism) equal full privatisation?
A privately owned railway exists for only one reason, that is to generate profit, therefore it should not be put in charge of a system which cannot realistically operate at an overall profit, let alone operate lines which are currently believed to be socially necessary at one.

Currently private investment in the passenger operations on British railways comes in at roughly £500million per year, according to the ORR, which is roughly 10% of current government subsidy.

Your whole argument is now totally confused by a Political argument.

If your argument was sutainable then even the EU which is predominantly a Socialist experiment would have required Railways to remain under Government control. They do not. Their whole policy is based upon a different structure.

The situation where we are with regards to subsidy is testament to 13 years of Labour mismanagement, where for example the demise of GNER for sheer cynical Political reasons, was given greater priority than setting out a properstructure and manging out those TOCs who failed, but of course Political patronage was well ensconced during Labour's time in power.

Which would get your priority for investment when it came to a clash for funding- a hospital or the Railway

 

[12CSVT]

The BR type staff are largely gone

What are "BR-type" staff, out of interest? Is the fact that "they" are gone a wholly bad thing?

It would probably be more accurate to say its the BR type management that have gone, ie had to work their way up from the bottom, AND had to be fully competent at doing the job of every member of staff they were responsible for.

Under privatisation just about any wizz-kid with a mickey mouse degree could walk into a TOC management position without the slightest clue how the railway operates. Many of them are just accountants.

 

[HSTEd]

Your whole argument is now totally confused by a Political argument.

If your argument was sutainable then even the EU which is predominantly a Socialist experiment would have required Railways to remain under Government control. They do not. Their whole policy is based upon a different structure.

The situation where we are with regards to subsidy is testament to 13 years of Labour mismanagement, where for example the demise of GNER for sheer cynical Political reasons, was given greater priority than setting out a properstructure and manging out those TOCs who failed, but of course Political patronage was well ensconced during Labour's time in power.

Which would get your priority for investment when it came to a clash for funding- a hospital or the Railway

Ah yes, the infamous socialist experiment that the Tories clamoured to join.
If you actually read the EUs regulations you find that they aren't socialist in the slightest, and they don't force people to give contracts to the lowest bidder either (it says most economically advantageous) and demand deregulation of most industries, especially utilities.

Regulation and so on is required if meaningful passenger railway operations are to be retained, currently only one TOC does not benefit from a net public subsidy (FCC) and even then they have trains which run at a profit and ones that run at a loss. (you can say goodbye to trains on Weekends or during off peak periods in commuter-land)
Without subsidy and government control the railway network would die a rapid and messy death and we would be without a significant long distance surface public transport infrastructure.

If something is receiving public funding it should be under public control and preferably public ownership to prevent the exploitation of the public the purse that has become the norm.

And as my semi-independent railway would be able to issue bonds in its own name and since we would likely be able to ignore the idiotic, arbitrary and neo-liberal overall government borrowing limits set by the EU (that do not distinguish between borrowing for infrastructure investment and borrowing to finance welfare payments - hence the idiocy of PFI).

We could invest as much as would required in infrastructure there would be no overall limit on capital funding, only on day-to-day overall operational subsidy and interest service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Having lived through nearly equal amounts of BR and Post-Nationalisation time I must say I rather prefer the post BR network. But then I remember BR at its worst, not the 'Golden' days those with longer memories may have tinted their memories with.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Having lived through nearly equal amounts of BR and Post-Nationalisation time I must say I rather prefer the post BR network. But then I remember BR at its worst, not the 'Golden' days those with longer memories may have tinted their memories with.

Having worked equal amounts of time through both I think I must agree with this.

 

[Schnellzug]

Deutsche Bahn: State Owned
SNCF: State Owned
SBB/CFF/FFS: State Owned
OBB: State Owned

The list goes on, the only highly efficient large passenger railways in the world that are privately operated (admittedly only the ones I can think of) are in Japan and those are a result of a privatisation brought on by the government requiring the railawy to build unneccesary infrastructure for political reasons while refusing to foot the bill themselves.

SNCF?! Have you seen the state of SNCF Fret? And even the French government is beginning to doubt that they can keep building High Speed libnes indefinitely and just endlessly borrow more and more to pay for it. And you know the traditional French rural branch line; two trains a day, at different times each day, and designed so as not to offer connections to or from anywhere. Also, regional & rural services in Germany are tendered now; it's only the inter-city services that DB still has a monopoly.

 

[NSEFAN]

I once tried to use a branchline in the south of France (I forget which one it was). Not only was the daily afternoon train replaced by a bus, but the replacement bus was also cancelled!

 

[Schnellzug]

Having lived through nearly equal amounts of BR and Post-Nationalisation time I must say I rather prefer the post BR network. But then I remember BR at its worst, not the 'Golden' days those with longer memories may have tinted their memories with.

This is exactly it. When were the Glorious Years? The 50s, when traffic was being lost hand over fist until they brought in a gentleman called Beeching? When locos were scrapped after about six or seven years service, entirely because of mismanagement? Or the post-Sectorisation era, when the network was made up of lots of pseudo-independent companies that refused to have anything to do with each other, and when the only news stories you ever came across that mentioned freight in any way were ones that had the words "closure" or "more traffic lost" in the headline? When was BR ever devoted to public service above and beyond anything else?

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO, under privatisation I would have created areas similar to the former BR Regions with one operator in each area running local services & a separate operator running InterCity services.

I would simplify ticketing so that all operators have to use one standard type of advance ticket & better co-operation between TOCs.


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