Bt police

[Hydro]

Maybe for some. Definitely not all.

Agreed - the thought of BTP swaggering round with guns scares me pooless.

G

No one swaggers around with "guns".

 

[O L Leigh]

You should come down to SSD. If the station supervisor calls up for Police assistance, no matter what the reason, they come down toting sub-machine guns because that's what they always carry as part of their everyday duties. It certainly subdues the fare-dodgers who give the on-train staff a hard time.

Quite honestly I can't get wound up about this. Every other force has an armed response division, so why not the BTP? And just what is the concern about having armed officers potentially travelling on trains anyway?

O L Leigh

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Personally its just a big fuss over nothing just the term 'armed' starts fussy people off! If this wasn't announced, or shown in the media and the we just started seeing the BTP armed we wouldn't make anything of it.

As someone who wants to go into the BTP and studying Public Service (emergency services) at college we had a discussion about this the other day, and our tutor an ex-CO19 officer says it would be better for the BTP to have an armed response team as every regional force is armed, and BTP have to rely on these for assistance in an armed situation. Atleast with there own little 'batch' of armed officers, other forces armed response team can focus on things more important in there own 'territory'.

And to my knowledge only around 120 officers or so are being trained, which is insignificant considering the size of the force.

 

[yorkie]

If you haven't done anything wrong why worry!

Hmm, not quite accurate. While I am not suggesting BTP will shoot for no reason, it is true to say that some BTP can on occasions get angry at people, delay you, search you or chuck you off a station for no good reason.

Here's one example, a member of staff told a passenger that they were representing a different company (which actually isn't a company), a passenger asked "who pays your wages?" the member of staff said "he is asking personal information, this has to stop" and the BTP PCSO took him away for a chat and threatened him with being forced to leave the station.

I also witnessed someone being forced to take a train from Horwich Parkway towards Manchester, despite having a ticket to where he lived in Wigan. When the doors opened at Bolton he was told that if he alighted from the train he would be arrested.

The claim that if you do no wrong you have nothing to fear is, at best, an exaggeration, and at worst completely wrong. And that's before we get into what happened at Stockwell...

If someone tells me they never make mistakes and they never penalise innocent members of the public, then I'll tell them they're mistaken.

 

[O L Leigh]

Blimey, Yorkie. No-one is above making mistakes. But if we insisted on a copper-bottomed gold-standard promise of infallibility (in any industry) none of us would ever bother getting out of bed in the morning. But that doesn't undermine the principle of having an armed division of the BTP.

O L Leigh

 

[83G/84D]

This thread is about future armed BTP officers at main stations in large cities not about BTP officers behaviour in general, good or bad.

I'm sure anyone who is unhappy about their treatment by any member of the police can complain to the local inspector or the IPCC.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have lived near London for almost 15 years. In all that time I am aware of only two people mistakenly shot by armed officers of the Met. One was Jean Charles de Menezes and the other was the poor unfortunate who was wandering the streets of Hackney with a table leg in a carrier bag that was mistaken for a sawn-off shotgun by a member of the public. Given the number of times that I am sure they get called out and have to discharge their weapons, that doesn't sound like we have anything to worry about. While any mistake is a tragedy and we would hope for none at all, every armed officer knows that discharging their weapon will lead to a full investigation, so they make damn sure they know what they are doing.

But I come back again to my original point. What is the big deal about arming the BTP when every other force has had armed officers for YEARS without comment or objection?

O L Leigh

 

[yorkie]

Blimey, Yorkie. No-one is above making mistakes. But if we insisted on a copper-bottomed gold-standard promise of infallibility (in any industry) none of us would ever bother getting out of bed in the morning. But that doesn't undermine the principle of having an armed division of the BTP.

I'm not suggesting that, I was only responding to the particular quote, nothing more. If the quote was "Well, the BTP have their faults, and aren't perfect, but on balance it's probably needed" I would have no issue with that.

 

[Stevenage91]

Surely with the Olympic Games coming up next year, the Idea of having armed BTP would benefit everyone. I wouldn’t have a clue on how many would be needed to cope with next year, but I think a few more wouldn’t do any harm.

The idea of them being on trains would be beneficial as well, surely not? The idea of them being on FCC would be very pleasing to a lot of people I know!

 

[tsr]

They've been secretly trialling this tactic for years with Lympstone Commando. Admittedly, they had to get the MoD to do it for them.

 

[12CSVT]

How long before somebody photting a train has a gun pointed at them by BTP ?

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm sorry, but that sort of comment is simply unhelpful.

What proportion of photters get bothered by BTP anyway? A very small percentage, I would imagine. So how much less would a photter be bothered by a BTP officer waving a gun at them? To suggest that it is even likely is simply mischief-making.

O L Leigh

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I'm sorry, but that sort of comment is simply unhelpful.

What proportion of photters get bothered by BTP anyway? A very small percentage, I would imagine. So how much less would a photter be bothered by a BTP officer waving a gun at them? To suggest that it is even likely is simply mischief-making.

O L Leigh

Only photographers that get stopped are those usually acting like idiots that think the railway revolves around them... Minority of enthusiasts but all the same.

 

[the sniper]

How long before somebody photting a train has a gun pointed at them by BTP ?

How many people have been on the pointy end of a gun held by a local police constable, just for taking a picture of something...? :roll:

As a percentage, how many people have taken pictures of trains with the BTP nearby and not been bothered, compared to those who have? Oh, sorry, just because people don't stick all those boring occasions on You Tube or forums, they obviously don't happen! That's the norm in my experience though, if pleasantries aren't swapped. Believe what ever you want to though.

People do come out with some ridiculous things on here sometimes. For what purpose, I don't know.

EDIT:

Only photographers that get stopped are those usually acting like idiots that think the railway revolves around them... Minority of enthusiasts but all the same.

It wouldn't be fair to say it's been exclusive to that in the past or even present though. I believe Yorkie was unfortunately bothered once a few years back (?), for reason that I seem to remember couldn't be blamed on him being 'an idiot'. There are a variety of reasons why these things occasionally occur.

 

[DarloRich]

Hmm, not quite accurate. While I am not suggesting BTP will shoot for no reason, it is true to say that some BTP can on occasions get angry at people, delay you, search you or chuck you off a station for no good reason.

I also witnessed someone being forced to take a train from Horwich Parkway towards Manchester, despite having a ticket to where he lived in Wigan. When the doors opened at Bolton he was told that if he alighted from the train he would be arrested.

Happens all the time if you are a football fan!

 

[WatcherZero]

I have lived near London for almost 15 years. In all that time I am aware of only two people mistakenly shot by armed officers of the Met. One was Jean Charles de Menezes and the other was the poor unfortunate who was wandering the streets of Hackney with a table leg in a carrier bag that was mistaken for a sawn-off shotgun by a member of the public. Given the number of times that I am sure they get called out and have to discharge their weapons, that doesn't sound like we have anything to worry about. While any mistake is a tragedy and we would hope for none at all, every armed officer knows that discharging their weapon will lead to a full investigation, so they make damn sure they know what they are doing.

But I come back again to my original point. What is the big deal about arming the BTP when every other force has had armed officers for YEARS without comment or objection?

O L Leigh

Youve got a short memory then! Remember the London Riots when you know they shot an unarmed man and then lied about it and people didnt sit down and take it, they got a bit....boisterous?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In all that time I am aware of only two people mistakenly shot by armed officers of the Met.

O L Leigh

Maybe by the Met, but let's have a look nationwide:
Keith Tilbury, accidentally shot in the chest during a Thames Valley Police firearms awareness session.
PC Ian Terry, shot dead by a colleague following a blunder while he played the role of a robber making a getaway during a training session.
PC accidentally shot his own hand while cleaning a weapon
PC fired a taser accidentally 26 times, one after another.
A PC shot a cow eight times with a rifle and four times with a shotgun during a "humane destruction"
Then Jean Charles De Menezes and the table leg incident.

 

[Hydro]

In all that time I am aware of only two people mistakenly shot by armed officers of the Met.

O L Leigh

Maybe by the Met, but let's have a look nationwide:
Keith Tilbury, accidentally shot in the chest during a Thames Valley Police firearms awareness session.
PC Ian Terry, shot dead by a colleague following a blunder while he played the role of a robber making a getaway during a training session.
PC accidentally shot his own hand while cleaning a weapon
PC fired a taser accidentally 26 times, one after another.
A PC shot a cow eight times with a rifle and four times with a shotgun during a "humane destruction"
Then Jean Charles De Menezes and the table leg incident.

I'd say that wasn't too bad for nationwide statistics.

 

[Greeny]

Does the thought of local police doing the same scare you too? :roll:

Ignorance obviously isn't bliss...

Ignorance eh?. Well, I guess it is the correct word but incorrectly aimed if it was directed at me. Having worked in BR, RT, and NR since 1975 I can honetly say that I've seen the BTP at work, and some of their contributions to law and order and with only a few exceptions, have never been impressed.

Ask some of the staff who have requested their attendance in a situation where they needed assistance urgently for their opinions. I have seen some of their responses and I have also seen some of what happens when they get bored.

I acknowledge that I'll probably be attacked here, but my comments are based on my own personal experiences. So, If anybody wants to have a swipe at me then fine, all I'd ask is that unlike in another thread they stick to the truth, don't misrepresent my comments, and don't split hairs. It is not much to ask.

To answer the original question, no - the thought of local Police with guns does not scare me.

 

[DarloRich]

As i asked earlier is it BTP with guns that are the issue or police with guns per se?

I have no problem with a cadre of highly trained, responsible, and experianced police officers being armed, be they BTP or otherwise. To arm police as a matter of course concerns me

 

[Smudger105e]

Maybe by the Met, but let's have a look nationwide:
Keith Tilbury, accidentally shot in the chest during a Thames Valley Police firearms awareness session.
PC Ian Terry, shot dead by a colleague following a blunder while he played the role of a robber making a getaway during a training session.
PC accidentally shot his own hand while cleaning a weapon
PC fired a taser accidentally 26 times, one after another.
A PC shot a cow eight times with a rifle and four times with a shotgun during a "humane destruction"

Hardly a list of the Police shooting members of the public. From the list above there is 3 of self or colleague injury, one taser incident that did not seem to cause injury, and one pc who could not cull a cow. Hardly an appalling catalogue. I wonder what the american police record is with firearms incidents...

 

[Greeny]

As i asekd earlier is it BTP with guns that are the issue or police with guns per se?

I have no problem with a cadre of highly trained, responsible, and experianced police officers being armed, be they BTP or otherwise. To arm police as a matter of course concerns me

Hello Darlo,

Personally, no, I have no issue with plod with guns per se - just with BTP with guns.

To respond and to your post, and to answer another persons’ post regarding people not ‘swaggering round’ with guns’. I do not have a problem with Police with guns when necessary – though I don’t feel comfortable when innocent people get shot, though I accept that a mistake can always happen. But when it does, the truth should always come out. Though to respond to another point made - a copper with a gun is too little, too late, when some nutter sets of a bomb on a train or a platform.

Regarding the post where somebody responded to my comment about swaggering round with guns. A few years ago I was on my way home from work when I decided to stop at a cashpoint on London Road in Liverpool. There were about 5 people in the queue so I joined it. After a short time, I heard a car door slam from behind. I ignored it. Then some kids going passed stopped and one said “look at him” and pointed, I thought, at me. When I turned round there was a local Copper standing behind me with a sub-machine gun in the queue. There were three Coppers in the ARV so why did this character have to join a cashpoint queue with a machine gun hanging round his neck ?.

G

 

[Hydro]

After a short time, I heard a car door slam from behind. I ignored it. Then some kids going passed stopped and one said “look at him” and pointed, I thought, at me. When I turned round there was a local Copper standing behind me with a sub-machine gun in the queue. There were three coppers in the ARV so why did this character have to join a cashpoint queue with a machine gun hanging round his neck ?.

G

That's not swaggering at all. He would have still had his sidearm with him if he left his primary in the car. Any issue with that? Leaving it with someone else would mean to prove weapon clear in the street, by carrying out a full unload (which outside of an operational environment should be carried out in front of an unloading pit or range environment, NEVER in a public street unless operationally required) and then a full load once he was to get back into the car. You don't just hand loaded weapons to one another, because you must ALWAYS be sure of a weapons condition whilst handling it, and NEVER take anyones word for it. To do this, you'd have to undertake the procedure detailed above, which is not suitable for that environment. Then you'd get "OMG this copper was cocking his gun in the street and all sorts" comments. Plus if the drills cocked up, the weapon malfunctioned or any safety issue arose, then an ND (negligent discharge) would run the risk of a 9mm careering around a cashpoint queue.

 

[EM2]

You should come down to SSD. If the station supervisor calls up for Police assistance, no matter what the reason, they come down toting sub-machine guns because that's what they always carry as part of their everyday duties. It certainly subdues the fare-dodgers who give the on-train staff a hard time.

This is what I found when I worked at duty-free at Gatwick, around the time of the Broadgate bombing. Shoplifters who ended up with the muzzle of an SMG under their nose soon tended to hand the goods back over!
As someone who now works somewhere that is going to be absolutely heaving next summer with many, many innocents abroad, those that look on them as easy pickings, and also those that may well seize the opportunity to do harm, then I'll be rather glad to see some armed officers around.

 

[185]

I'd be hoping they'd shoot fare dodgers, but from recent BTP shenanigans I'm more expecting them to shoot the long suffering railway staff.

Oh hang on, didn't Clarkson get strung up for saying something like that?

 

[DarloRich]

Hello Darlo,

Personally, no, I have no issue with plod with guns per se - just with BTP with guns.

To respond and to your post, and to answer another persons’ post regarding people not ‘swaggering round’ with guns’. I do not have a problem with Police with guns when necessary – though I don’t feel comfortable when innocent people get shot, though I accept that a mistake can always happen. But when it does, the truth should always come out. Though to respond to another point made - a copper with a gun is too little, too late, when some nutter sets of a bomb on a train or a platform.

G

Hydro has beaten me to why he still had his gun.

However, I agree with most of what you said but i have no problem with BTP armed officers as long as they are subject to the same training, rules, regulations, comamand and control as all other forces. (I expect they will be)

I cant imagine them carrying guns at all times when simply crusing the rail network. I assume there will be an armed response unit at critical locations at all times coupled with mobile patrols at key points or in times of increased threat levels.

In fact i dont see armed units having to be on trains very often at all.

 

[the sniper]

To answer the original question, no - the thought of local Police with guns does not scare me.

You're free to believe what ever you like in relation to your own personal experiences with the BTP. I wasn't there and don't know who you spoke to, so I can't comment.

You're position on the firearms situation is ignorant though. The BTP training will quite obviously be to the same standard as the locals receive. It's also logical to assume that those getting onto the firearms program will be well chosen.

 

[AndrewP]

Can you provide a link?



Airports are a major terrorist target. Railway stations not so much.

What about 7/7 and the carnage on the Tube?

A train is an ideal terrorist target if you want to cause death and injury as it is a lot of people in a confined place.

 

[Essexman]

Hmm, not quite accurate. While I am not suggesting BTP will shoot for no reason, it is true to say that some BTP can on occasions get angry at people, delay you, search you or chuck you off a station for no good reason.

Here's one example, a member of staff told a passenger that they were representing a different company (which actually isn't a company), a passenger asked "who pays your wages?" the member of staff said "he is asking personal information, this has to stop" and the BTP PCSO took him away for a chat and threatened him with being forced to leave the station.

I also witnessed someone being forced to take a train from Horwich Parkway towards Manchester, despite having a ticket to where he lived in Wigan. When the doors opened at Bolton he was told that if he alighted from the train he would be arrested.

The claim that if you do no wrong you have nothing to fear is, at best, an exaggeration, and at worst completely wrong. And that's before we get into what happened at Stockwell...

If someone tells me they never make mistakes and they never penalise innocent members of the public, then I'll tell them they're mistaken.

I too had a bad experience with BTP at Horwich Parkway.

Officers waded into waiting crowd (West Ham supporters), hitting people with batons for no apparent reason. I wrote to complain afterwards and the reply was as close as you'll ever get for an admission of guilt from the police - on the lines of - unable to comment but having viewed CCTV could see no reason that would necessitate batons being used. Then they wouldn't let us off the train at Oxford Road meaning that we missed our connection.

I'd question the benefit of allowing BTP to carry guns as I'm not sure of any instances where armed police would have protected life on trains and stations, but they have of course killed an innocent man on a train. Perhaps it is right that armed response (BTP or other) is available, but not that they walk round our stations toting weapons as you see at airports.

 

[neilmc]

My own view is that the BTP should be disbanded and replaced by proper police officers who have a duty to society as a whole and not to the interests of the rail industy. Otherwise, we may as well have the security guards in Tescos or any other commercial entity replaced by a private force with the full powers of law enforcement.