'Bumping' - is it becoming a serious problem?

[waterboo]

Thankfully, I made the decision to escape from London to a far more laid back and stress free North Yorkshire about 8 years ago. However upon recent visit to London - I only had to stand at the gateline for no less than 5 minutes at Queen's Park to witness count of about 8 individuals 'bumping' the gate by forcefully pushing themselves against the barriers. This was in the presence of a station assistant whom did little (which is fair enough given this was late evening, and single staffed) to stop the bumpers. The bumpers were also of mixed demographic from old ladies, to young teenagers.

Is TFL in a position to announce that bumping is a serious problem across the network, or was it simply a case of being present at an unfortunate time to witness such a high prevalence of offences?

 

[Hadders]

There's an increase in fare evasion across the whole rail network at the moment. There are several reasons for this, in no particular order:

Cost of living crisis
Increase in general crime rate
Criminal justice system under pressure
Lack of police response
General detirioration in behaviour (particularly post covid)
Cuts in staffing

This isn't exclusive to the rail industry. For example, retailer stock loss has increased at an alarming rate in recent years for similar reasons.

 

[bramling]

Thankfully, I made the decision to escape from London to a far more laid back and stress free North Yorkshire about 8 years ago. However upon recent visit to London - I only had to stand at the gateline for no less than 5 minutes at Queen's Park to witness count of about 8 individuals 'bumping' the gate by forcefully pushing themselves against the barriers. This was in the presence of a station assistant whom did little (which is fair enough given this was late evening, and single staffed) to stop the bumpers. The bumpers were also of mixed demographic from old ladies, to young teenagers.

Is TFL in a position to announce that bumping is a serious problem across the network, or was it simply a case of being present at an unfortunate time to witness such a high prevalence of offences?

It’s always been an issue, however has got significantly worse since Covid, along with behavioural standards in general. London in particular has become pretty feral recently, and this isn’t just a “certain times and places” thing.

 

[Mawkie]

Unfortunately, challenging people for £2 of someone else's money can lead to 12 days in hospital with a fractured skull and a life-long memory of the incident. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...-harrow-on-the-hill-underground-b1127393.html

As mentioed above, it's not just the railway - it's everywhere. Small shopkeepers are being assaulted left, right and centre, as are social workers, housing officers, emergency workers, and on and on and on.

There is such a slim chance of having any kind of backup (be that police, other staff, or indeed the general public) that serious, hideous crimes go unchallenged.

See also the literal rape on the Piccadilly Line that was witnessed by other passengers who felt unable to intervene for whatever reason.

‘Depraved’ sex offender raped woman while she was unconscious on London Tube train

Attack by Ryan Johnston happened three hours after he performed sex act in front of two women and chased them down street

www.independent.co.uk

I came into Finsbury Park the other day and 2 crack heads were smoking a crack pipe on the platform. I didn't even call it in.

My only ambition in my working life is getting home safely every night, hence I see nothing, say nothing, do nothing.

Edit to answer your question: no, your experience wasn't a one-off exception. It is the grim reality of a broken Britain where a growing entitled majority believe they should not have to pay for anything. I can assure you (from reading the TfL internal social media feeds) that is it extremely frustrating for the gate line staff. Of course, with TfL not recruiting revenue staff for many years, they rely on a few high profile stings to promote a sense that something is being done about it.

 

[HullRailMan]

I was followed through a wide luggage gate by two males aged about 15 recently on the Elizabeth Line. I pointed them out to station staff who couldn’t have cared less. I shared an image of them online with TfL and the BTP in the hope they would investigate and was promptly told I was the problem for sharing their image without consent. What’s the point!

 

[bramling]

I was followed through a wide luggage gate by two males aged about 15 recently on the Elizabeth Line. I pointed them out to station staff who couldn’t have cared less. I shared an image of them online with TfL and the BTP in the hope they would investigate and was promptly told I was the problem for sharing their image without consent. What’s the point!

It does make one cringe that all this seems to have occurred with “the party of law & order” in charge.

I get the feeling this crime spree, currently at any rate, is particularly a London problem. Though like many things what happens in London tends to permeate outwards in time.

 

[Adtrainsam]

However upon recent visit to London - I only had to stand at the gateline for no less than 5 minutes at Queen's Park to witness count of about 8 individuals 'bumping' the gate by forcefully pushing themselves against the barriers. This was in the presence of a station assistant whom did little (which is fair enough given this was late evening, and single staffed) to stop the bumpers.

Varies between stations and obviously the time of day. At 8am on a weekday in a city station - you will see very little of it. I stand near the gateline at Stratford sometimes on a Friday/Saturday evening (waiting for friends) and it’s not uncommon to see 40+ bumping the barriers within a 10 minute period. It’s clear something needs to be done about it, and I do feel sorry for the singular member of staff on the other end of the gateline dealing with the various issues.

 

[Turtle]

Varies between stations and obviously the time of day. At 8am on a weekday in a city station - you will see very little of it. I stand near the gateline at Stratford sometimes on a Friday/Saturday evening (waiting for friends) and it’s not uncommon to see 40+ bumping the barriers within a 10 minute period. It’s clear something needs to be done about it, and I do feel sorry for the singular member of staff on the other end of the gateline dealing with the various issues.

Back in the 1960s I was a civil servant. In one year alone four young female colleagues were penalised by London Transport for fare evasion, something which I was surprised to find they did not regard as criminal. These "low lifes" included a colonel's daughter, a doctor's daughter and a woman from a very religious Christian family. So, perhaps, there is less new under the sun than we think.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Of course, with TfL not recruiting revenue staff for many years, they rely on a few high profile stings to promote a sense that something is being done about it.

Must have imagined the significant RCI, RCO and TSO recruitment over the last 18 months then.

 

[endicomark69@g]

It’s always been an issue, however has got significantly worse since Covid, along with behavioural standards in general. London in particular has become pretty feral recently, and this isn’t just a “certain times and places” thing.

If we are going to make stupid, sweeping generalisations about a City with 8.5M people in it - the vast Majority of whom are anything but feral - then perhaps it's fair to posit that London actually isn't "feral" at all, it just doesn't like YOU personally and acts accordingly.

 

[3141]

I recall reading about a court case 15-20 years ago in which someone who "tailgated" through a barrier had been caught and fined. When stopped he was reported to have said "This is London - nobody pays". Obviously that wasn't true, but with the passage of time it's likely that an increasing number of people adopt that approach, if in fact they can get away with it.

 

[bramling]

If we are going to make stupid, sweeping generalisations about a City with 8.5M people in it - the vast Majority of whom are anything but feral - then perhaps it's fair to posit that London actually isn't "feral" at all, it just doesn't like YOU personally and acts accordingly.

So are you suggesting there *hasn’t* been a conspicuous increase in problematic behaviour over the last few years? If so, most of the people who actually have to deal with such behaviour (i.e. front-line staff) would disagree with such an opinion. Likewise statistics confirm that things are getting worse, specifically on TFL which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Florence Rox]

I work on a gate line at one of London's busiest stations, and we get several people breaking through the barriers every day. Sometimes we get asked what we are doing about it, and all I can say is that I make a note of it and ill out a form. None of the staff at my station are going to tackle these people for fear of our own safety. It is incredibly frustrating that we have to stand there and let them do it, but rewarding on the occasions when they set up sting operations and some of these fare dodgers get arrested.

 

[185143]

I tapped in at East Croydon a while ago, just after a group of youths had forced their way through the barriers. One of the barrier staff remarked, with the youths possibly still in earshot, that "at least some people know how it works".

They must be in a very difficult position. I absolutely do not blame the staff for not challenging them directly, given the potential consequences being so high. Likewise, I agree with their frustration and can fully understand why people may then have the thought process of "Well they haven't paid, so why should I?"

It's not just a London problem though. I exited at Birmingham New Street once and sensed a fare evader was about to tailgate me through the barriers. Once I noticed he had, I momentarily paused as I'd passed through in just the right position for him to get physically stuck in the gates. Oopsie what a shame(!)

 

[Turtle]

So are you suggesting there *hasn’t* been a conspicuous increase in problematic behaviour over the last few years? If so, most of the people who actually have to deal with such behaviour (i.e. front-line staff) would disagree with such an opinion. Likewise statistics confirm that things are getting worse, specifically on TFL which is the subject of

I tapped in at East Croydon a while ago, just after a group of youths had forced their way through the barriers. One of the barrier staff remarked, with the youths possibly still in earshot, that "at least some people know how it works".

They must be in a very difficult position. I absolutely do not blame the staff for not challenging them directly, given the potential consequences being so high. Likewise, I agree with their frustration and can fully understand why people may then have the thought process of "Well they haven't paid, so why should I?"

It's not just a London problem though. I exited at Birmingham New Street once and sensed a fare evader was about to tailgate me through the barriers. Once I noticed he had, I momentarily paused as I'd passed through in just the right position for him to get physically stuck in the gates. Oopsie what a shame(!)

I did that at London Victoria many years ago. One derives a quiet satisfaction.

 

[birchesgreen]

What do people mean by "bumping"? Following someone in front very closely or something else?

 

[Mojo]

What do people mean by "bumping"? Following someone in front very closely or something else?

I’ve never heard this terminology used before but I have taken it from the description to just mean pushing/ forcing the gate paddles as opposed to passing through behind someone else.

 

[MCR247]

What do people mean by "bumping"? Following someone in front very closely or something else?

“bumping” is more often than not just used to generally describe the behaviour of fare evasion, as opposed to a specific way of doing it. It may not involve anything more than choosing not to touch in and out on the DLR, for example.

 

[birchesgreen]

“bumping” is more often than not just used to generally describe the behaviour of fare evasion, as opposed to a specific way of doing it. It may not involve anything more than choosing not to touch in and out on the DLR, for example.

OK thanks

 

[43066]

If we are going to make stupid, sweeping generalisations about a City with 8.5M people in it - the vast Majority of whom are anything but feral - then perhaps it's fair to posit that London actually isn't "feral" at all, it just doesn't like YOU personally and acts accordingly.

So are you suggesting there *hasn’t* been a conspicuous increase in problematic behaviour over the last few years? If so, most of the people who actually have to deal with such behaviour (i.e. front-line staff) would disagree with such an opinion. Likewise statistics confirm that things are getting worse, specifically on TFL which is the subject of this thread.

As a lifelong Londoner I have to agree with @bramling ’s observation above. There has undoubtedly been a significant deterioration in behaviour, and London sadly doesn’t feel as safe as it used to. This is indeed borne out by statistics:

Topic: Crime in London

Find the most up-to-date statistics about Crime in London

www.statista.com

In recent years the city of London has frequently been in the headlines of the British press due to a noticeable surge in crime, with police recorded crime figuresreaching 912,487 offences in 2019/20, compared with 743,728 in 2015/16. Much of this increase has been driven by a surge in violent crime, with the number of violent crime offences in London reaching 242,824 offences in 2021/22. Additionally, there has been a steady rise in the number of knife crimes which reached 15,928 offences in 2019/20. By several measures, violent crime in London has gotten worse in recent years, although there are some signs this trend is reversing. Violent crime declined in 2022/23 when compared with the previous year, while overall crime in 2022/23 was slightly lower than in 2019/20.

Let’s hope the suggested reversal of the trend continues.

 

[CeeJ]

Beyond more obvious solutions (i.e. increasing the number of stations with barriers + increasing RPI staff), what more could be feasibly done here?

I'm imagining that you could theoretically replace barriers with turnstiles (though raises Qs about fire safety and luggage), or make greater use of AI to detect (and target) faces of repeat offenders?

 

[sleepinghobby]

This topic emerges quite often these days. Rail evasion has always existed but was not as noticeable as it was mainly the white collar type which is still ongoing. We are now seeing more noticeable versions of fare evasion in our post-COVID reality committed by certain groups of people. A lot of people are now self-centerred as a result of social media, breakdown in the social contract (partially), and incredibly poor upbringing. The rest is committed by people who have received a poor upbringing and participate in a culture of crime glorification. Solution: allow the railways to be privatised so that proft seeking businesses are incentivised to maximise their revenue and profit by putting up measures to prevent fare evasion or since they're already in public ownership in disguise, make it completely free for passengers so its fully subsidised by tax payers. That way tax contributing fare paying passengers aren't getting shafted as they are currently though it doesn't solve the other issues that come with the levels of anti social behavior we are witnessing at the moment (muggings, assault, delaying trains, vaping, littering etc. though maybe tax contributors won't take too kindly to see the infrasture and services they're fully subsiding getting trashed by the dregs of society).

I would be interested to see some numbers on how often engineers have to make visits to repair gates compared to pre-COVID.

 

[trebor79]

Couldn't the barriers be modified so that the gates can't be forced open? I realise they are probably like that for safety reasons to prevent injury should a crush situation develop, but perhaps that can be mitigated some other way?
Or perhaps have cameras take a photograph of whoever is going through the gate if it is forced, and use facial recognition and computer algorithms to work out their typical travel patterns and have a sting set up to catch them? You'd only need to catch a few this way to discourage others.

I saw a normal looking family avoid tapping in at Stratford yesterday evening after the gate attendants went into their mess/office for a minute or so and left the wide aisle exit gate open. Saw them about to tap in, then they spotted the open gate and just walked through. Presumably they were headed for the DLR.

There was also some guy on Twitter the other saying you don't need to tap into the DLR because if the RPI scans your card they can't tell if you've tapped in or not. No amount of telling him that you get full-fared later when they upload the scans to the back office was stopping him spout this nonsense. Also he confidently said any criminal record would "be immediately spent and you wouldn't have to declare it".

There does seem to be an undercurrent of "don't have to pay" developing in some social circles.

 

[lonogrol]

Couldn't the barriers be modified so that the gates can't be forced open? I realise they are probably like that for safety reasons to prevent injury should a crush situation develop, but perhaps that can be mitigated some other way?

Couldn't the barriers be modified so that the gates can't be forced open? I realise they are probably like that for safety reasons to prevent injury should a crush situation develop, but perhaps that can be mitigated some other way?

There is actually currently a trial in place which commenced the other week at a station at which the resistance on the motors was turned up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So are you suggesting there *hasn’t* been a conspicuous increase in problematic behaviour over the last few years?

I don’t think there has been. The tube is as safe as it’s ever been. The halfwit Tory Mayor candidate proved that the other week, losing her purse and Oyster card and having it delivered back to her house by a stranger. Not the point she was hoping to make, I’m sure.

People complaining now about safety on the tube clearly don’t remember what it was like in the late 80s, especially on the southern half of the Northern Line.

 

[stuu]

I saw a normal looking family avoid tapping in at Stratford yesterday evening after the gate attendants went into their mess/office for a minute or so and left the wide aisle exit gate open. Saw them about to tap in, then they spotted the open gate and just walked through. Presumably they were headed for the DLR.

That doesn't mean they didn't have a valid ticket though, just that they saw an easier way to get through the barriers. Done that plenty of times myself

 

[bramling]

I don’t think there has been. The tube is as safe as it’s ever been.

I’m afraid the evidence doesn’t bear this out. Even TFL have now started mandating that *all* passenger-facing staff wear bodycams, which is partly down to a significant increase in workplace violence faced by staff.

People complaining now about safety on the tube clearly don’t remember what it was like in the late 80s, especially on the southern half of the Northern Line.

This was something of a localised issue, like with sections like the Hammersmith branch, or in the 2000s the north end of the Bakerloo. Much of this was able to be largely solved by measures such as CCTV. By contrast CCTV seems to be providing little deterrent against the current wave of trouble.

 

[Mojo]

I don’t think there has been. The tube is as safe as it’s ever been.

I’m not sure that is quite true. Official data shows that crime on the London Underground has increased by over 50% in the first half of this financial year compared to the same period last year, despite passenger numbers increasing by nowhere near that amount.

 

[LLivery]

When I worked in retail, people stole. I wasn't running after them, and security made it clear, that it was not our responsibility to do so. That's the job of security or 'law enforcement'. In Italy, I'm pretty sure the guard, or whatever they're officially called, has the power equivalent of police - British station staff do not. Considering how overstretched police are nowadays, I think they often have more important things to do than travel to a station over a 3 quid train fare. Not saying it's right, but priorities. Can't keep cutting funding and then wondering why crime is rising.

But while I'd say crime is an issue, the idea it's a 'London issue' while Manchester Metrolink exists seems like the annoying 'London is dangerous' narrative, ignoring the fact London doesn't even have the highest crime rate in England (the North East does). In London, posts are worried about people 'bumping train' - major incidents shock Londoners, while for Manchester, the MEN makes it seem like it's 80s NYC.

I’m not sure that is quite true. Official data shows that crime on the London Underground has increased by over 50% in the first half of this financial year compared to the same period last year, despite passenger numbers increasing by nowhere near that amount.

Maybe, but according to the BBC article reporting that, incidents of crime on TfL services rose from 17,160 last year to 22,294. For a network of over 3bn journies a year, in a city of 9m, and with reporting being easier than ever before, that isn't exactly 'feral'.

I don’t think there has been. The tube is as safe as it’s ever been. The halfwit Tory Mayor candidate proved that the other week, losing her purse and Oyster card and having it delivered back to her house by a stranger. Not the point she was hoping to make, I’m sure.

People complaining now about safety on the tube clearly don’t remember what it was like in the late 80s, especially on the southern half of the Northern Line.

I got my phone back after I left it on a seat on a London Bridge train a few years back. While years ago I left a bag with trainers in, on an EMT outside of London. I never got them back, despite them being worn. Good and bad everywhere

 

[bramling]

When I worked in retail, people stole. I wasn't running after them, and security made it clear, that it was not our responsibility to do so. That's the job of security or 'law enforcement'. In Italy, I'm pretty sure the guard, or whatever they're officially called, has the power equivalent of police - British station staff do not. Considering how overstretched police are nowadays, I think they often have more important things to do than travel to a station over a 3 quid train fare. Not saying it's right, but priorities. Can't keep cutting funding and then wondering why crime is rising.

But while I'd say crime is an issue, the idea it's a 'London issue' while Manchester Metrolink exists seems like the annoying 'London is dangerous' narrative, ignoring the fact London doesn't even have the highest crime rate in England (the North East does). In London, posts are worried about people 'bumping train' - major incidents shock Londoners, while for Manchester, the MEN makes it seem like it's 80s NYC.

There’s trouble and there’s trouble. I’m less familiar with Metrolink over the last few years, however I know the Tyne & Wear Metro well. The stuff that goes on there is pretty insane, but I’d say you are pretty unlikely to have a knife pulled on there. By contrast this is becoming quite an issue on LU now. It isn’t just a case of numbers, but what each number represents.

Likewise, on something like T&W Metro there is probably always going to be an element of trouble because it is so thinly staffed and has comparatively few security measures. What is becoming quite concerning on LU is that all this is happening *despite* measures like fully staffed stations, extensive CCTV that is generally quite thoroughly monitored, CCTV on trains, reasonable police coverage, etc.