Busiest station with fewer than one t.p.h.?

[zwk500]

I'm not sure you would. You already have passing places at Battersby and Glaisdale that are barely used, the problem is the section from Grosmont onwards.

What it needs is not to have massive gaps in the service.

Which an additional block section wouldn't help on it's own for the public service. The proposal to modify the intermediate token is to allow the NYMR to get on and off the network easier, but the public service wouldn't be able to pass a train from Whitby beyond the loop at Glaisdale anyway. I'd need a bit more time to look into the runtimes as to exactly where trains would need to pass for a 2-hourly service (or better).

 

[Skipness]

Whitby is an unusual example. Out of season trains are quiet except for the 8.30am arrival and the 4.00pm departure which carry the school children. As these are travelling on “contract” tickets are their numbers recorded in the published numbers of user?
In season the line is much better patronised and it is not unusual for the midday arrival on a sunny day to be packed and standing. All these arrivals need to return later in the day at 4pm or 7.40pm. People coming for a holiday rather than a day visit tend to be more spread during the day.
Additionally there are the NYMR services bringing several hundred folk in and out. Are these recorded in the published figures?

 

[hexagon789]

The ORR figures are for National Rail services only.

Additionally there are the NYMR services bringing several hundred folk in and out. Are these recorded in the published figures?

Additionally there are the NYMR services bringing several hundred folk in and out. Are these recorded in the published figures?

 

[deltic]

I cant find the thread now but someone posted a spreadsheet a number of years ago with number of trains served by each station and number of passengers per year. I seem to recall that Chelmsford had the highest number of passengers boarding and alighting per train but it obviously has more than 1tph

 

[yorksrob]

Which an additional block section wouldn't help on it's own for the public service. The proposal to modify the intermediate token is to allow the NYMR to get on and off the network easier, but the public service wouldn't be able to pass a train from Whitby beyond the loop at Glaisdale anyway. I'd need a bit more time to look into the runtimes as to exactly where trains would need to pass for a 2-hourly service (or better).

Isn't the point that you'd be able to flight trains into Whitby and flight them out again - they wouldn't actually need to pass east of Grosmont.

 

[willgreen]

Oh, I quite agree. I suspect the line also goes to the ‘wrong’ place, for most Whitby inhabitants and tourists are more likely to gravitate towards York or Leeds culturally and economically over Middlesbrough.

I think it has been suggested before, but you do wonder how well a reopening of the line from Battersby westwards would do... new south-facing junction onto the ECML, allowing a York-Whitby service; curtail all Boro-Whitby trains at Battersby (or alternatively close Great Ayton and terminate them at Nunthorpe). Would probably cost billions for limited benefit though.

 

[zwk500]

Isn't the point that you'd be able to flight trains into Whitby and flight them out again - they wouldn't actually need to pass east of Grosmont.

Possibly, although that becomes extremely fiddly to signal.

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly, although that becomes extremely fiddly to signal.

You only need to slip the NYMR service in behind the service train from Grosmont, hence the block post, then it's got it's own platform at Whitby.

The remainder of the existing infrastructure supported a more frequent service in the past.

 

[zwk500]

You only need to slip the NYMR service in behind the service train from Grosmont, hence the block post, then it's got it's own platform at Whitby.

The proposal as I understood it for the block post was that you'd be able to let a Down NYMR onto the line after an UP NR train had got to Grosmont. A Down NYMR can already travel from Grosmont to Whitby once the NR train is in the platform at Whitby. But I was assuming we were functionally ignoring the NYMR for this discussion.

The remainder of the existing infrastructure supported a more frequent service in the past.

Did it? Fair enough, I've not got extensive experience of the area.

 

[yorksrob]

The proposal as I understood it for the block post was that you'd be able to let a Down NYMR onto the line after an UP NR train had got to Grosmont. A Down NYMR can already travel from Grosmont to Whitby once the NR train is in the platform at Whitby. But I was assuming we were functionally ignoring the NYMR for this discussion.

Did it? Fair enough, I've not got extensive experience of the area.

Either way, the point is to fit a more intensive public service with the NYMR services, the rest of the line can handle a more intensive service.

 

[DanNCL]

No doubt Whitby is very much seasonal traffic. A train on a Tuesday lunchtime in January for example probably won’t have more than a handful of passengers on it. The same Tuesday lunchtime train in August during a heatwave would be packed out.

 

[Iskra]

I think it has been suggested before, but you do wonder how well a reopening of the line from Battersby westwards would do... new south-facing junction onto the ECML, allowing a York-Whitby service; curtail all Boro-Whitby trains at Battersby (or alternatively close Great Ayton and terminate them at Nunthorpe). Would probably cost billions for limited benefit though.

I totally agree and was thinking the same thing, I think it would do pretty well- similar to the Scarborough branch probably. However, as you point out it would be expensive and probably still require subsidy, so little chance of anything happening in the current climate despite the opportunity for a large amount of modal shift on journeys between Leeds/York-Whitby and the benefit of taking a fair few cars off the roads of North Yorkshire and Whitby.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it has been suggested before, but you do wonder how well a reopening of the line from Battersby westwards would do... new south-facing junction onto the ECML, allowing a York-Whitby service; curtail all Boro-Whitby trains at Battersby (or alternatively close Great Ayton and terminate them at Nunthorpe). Would probably cost billions for limited benefit though.

I daresay a more direct route South would be popular from Yorkshire, but don't underestimate the demand from the Middlesbrough direction. You'd need to still run those trains to Whitby.

 

[D6130]

I think it has been suggested before, but you do wonder how well a reopening of the line from Battersby westwards would do... new south-facing junction onto the ECML, allowing a York-Whitby service; curtail all Boro-Whitby trains at Battersby (or alternatively close Great Ayton and terminate them at Nunthorpe). Would probably cost billions for limited benefit though.

A large proportion of the Battersby-Stokesley-Picton line, which closed nearly sixty years ago, has been either built on, or sold to local farmers and ploughed back into the land.

 

[nw1]

Whitby is an unusual example. Out of season trains are quiet except for the 8.30am arrival and the 4.00pm departure which carry the school children. As these are travelling on “contract” tickets are their numbers recorded in the published numbers of user?
In season the line is much better patronised and it is not unusual for the midday arrival on a sunny day to be packed and standing. All these arrivals need to return later in the day at 4pm or 7.40pm. People coming for a holiday rather than a day visit tend to be more spread during the day.

While I don't know Whitby, one general comment:

I'm surprised there isn't a departure at 6pm or so, at least in the summer timetable, as sometime round then would presumably be the optimum time for returning day trippers.

4pm is way too early to go home in the summer (or even the spring or early autumn), and maybe 7.40pm is a little late for the more family-oriented market, though would suit those who want to stay for a drink or two.

 

[zwk500]

While I don't know Whitby, one general comment:

I'm surprised there isn't a departure at 6pm or so, at least in the summer timetable, as sometime round then would presumably be the optimum time for returning day trippers.

4pm is way too early to go home in the summer (or even the spring or early autumn), and maybe 7.40pm is a little late for the more family-oriented market, though would suit those who want to stay for a drink or two.

The journey time from Whitby to Middlesbrough is about 1h30, give or take. The TPE services take 1h25 between Middlesbrough and Leeds, and then a further hour to Manchester. If TPE were running an hourly service (RTT seems to suggest they aren't at the end of the day today) you could expect the xx18 departures to be the intended connections at Middlesbrough. 6pm wouldn't but 5.40pm would meet the 19.18 TPE for 20.45 Leeds, which is a reasonable time to arrive home. However it also means you either have to have a very early tea, take it with you on the train, or a very late one when you get back. None of which are ideal for family bucket & spaders.

The ideal then would seem to be a 6.40 departure to meet the 20.18, to get to Leeds before 10pm and Manchester before 11pm, when buses and trams should still be running to get properly home. It's still quite late though if you have younger kids, and 3h travelling each way.

 

[Iskra]

A large proportion of the Battersby-Stokesley-Picton line, which closed nearly sixty years ago, has been either built on, or sold to local farmers and ploughed back into the land.

A new alignment would indeed be needed, but it would probably benefit from better design, quality and faster speeds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No doubt Whitby is very much seasonal traffic. A train on a Tuesday lunchtime in January for example probably won’t have more than a handful of passengers on it. The same Tuesday lunchtime train in August during a heatwave would be packed out.

Whitby itself probably has more "year round" tourism than a lot of similarly sized seaside towns- I visited on Jan 2nd 2020 and it was absolutely heaving! However I'd agree that visitors by rail probably are very seasonal- due to the long and circuitous routing, a trip by rail is harder to make when it's 4°c and gets dark at 4pm. The winter crowds will almost all arrive by road even if there were a train every 30 minutes, and for the bikers the visit is as much about the journey over the moors as it is about the destination.

 

[yorksrob]

While I don't know Whitby, one general comment:

I'm surprised there isn't a departure at 6pm or so, at least in the summer timetable, as sometime round then would presumably be the optimum time for returning day trippers.

4pm is way too early to go home in the summer (or even the spring or early autumn), and maybe 7.40pm is a little late for the more family-oriented market, though would suit those who want to stay for a drink or two.

Yes, this is one of the key services that the line is missing. I have used the later service on occasions, however it is too tight for connections and often results in stranding.

 

[D6130]

The ideal then would seem to be a 6.40 departure to meet the 20.18, to get to Leeds before 10pm and Manchester before 11pm, when buses and trams should still be running to get properly home. It's still quite late though if you have younger kids, and 3h travelling each way.

The timetable is designed around one unit (or a pair of units) and two crews - early and late shift - shuttling backwards and forwards between Middlesbrough and Whitby. As stated upthread, the major priority revolves around the high school starting and finishing times, as its pupils form the backbone of the year-round passenger traffic. Everything else - and everyone else - must fit in with them. Long-distance connections at Middlesbrough are not a priority....most people travelling to Whitby from West Yorkshire by public transport will travel by train and bus, changing at either York or Scarborough....or indeed by using the (currently under threat) 840 bus all the way from Leeds. Any increase in the Middlesbrough-Whitby service would entail a huge increase in costs and thus massively reduce the viability of the line. However, we're drifting off-topic....

 

[Lloyds siding]

I think Elgin has less than 1tph, and pre-COVID, over 300,000 passengers pa

 

[zwk500]

The timetable is designed around one unit (or a pair of units) and two crews - early and late shift - shuttling backwards and forwards between Middlesbrough and Whitby. As stated upthread, the major priority revolves around the high school starting and finishing times, as its pupils form the backbone of the year-round passenger traffic. Everything else - and everyone else - must fit in with them. Long-distance connections at Middlesbrough are not a priority....most people travelling to Whitby from West Yorkshire by public transport will travel by train and bus, changing at either York or Scarborough....or indeed by using the (currently under threat) 840 bus all the way from Leeds. Any increase in the Middlesbrough-Whitby service would entail a huge increase in costs and thus massively reduce the viability of the line.

Oh, I'm well aware, I was just engaging in the premise of operating a service for day trippers.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Another triumph of operational convenience over passenger's reasonable expectations?

 

[D6130]

Another triumph of operational convenience over passenger's reasonable expectations?

Yes, to a degree....but without it the line would have closed years ago.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The timetable is designed around one unit (or a pair of units) and two crews - early and late shift - shuttling backwards and forwards between Middlesbrough and Whitby. As stated upthread, the major priority revolves around the high school starting and finishing times, as its pupils form the backbone of the year-round passenger traffic. Everything else - and everyone else - must fit in with them. Long-distance connections at Middlesbrough are not a priority....most people travelling to Whitby from West Yorkshire by public transport will travel by train and bus, changing at either York or Scarborough....or indeed by using the (currently under threat) 840 bus all the way from Leeds. Any increase in the Middlesbrough-Whitby service would entail a huge increase in costs and thus massively reduce the viability of the line.

You've just reminded me of a late 90s documentary that was on BBC North (Close Up North?) which covered how local services in the early years of privatisation were seen as being in a sort of stasis, with no prospect of growth. Obviously it's been over twenty years so I can't recall the exact details, but it looked at the Whitby line and how there was only funding for the services that catered to the schools. The service at the time was operated by a pair of Pacers, and the documentary mentioned that even if the funding was available for a better service there still wasn't enough stock to do it. Splitting the pair wouldn't work as you needed both for the schools traffic. At one point, the documentary mentioned a load of recently-retired DMUs that were parked up in a siding behind Doncaster station, these being the 141s that were later sold to Iran.

Anyone else remember seeing this?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, to a degree....but without it the line would have closed years ago.

Isn't it the case that it had two trains shuttling backwards and forwards until the 1990's, hence the various passing places ?

This is what we need to get back to to get the line achieving its potential (and was something intended from the proposed potash mine investment AFAIK).

 

[willgreen]

A large proportion of the Battersby-Stokesley-Picton line, which closed nearly sixty years ago, has been either built on, or sold to local farmers and ploughed back into the land.

These things can be got round but it does obviously add to the cost

 

[D6130]

Way off topic now....although I hold my hand up to perpetuating the crime!

 

[nw1]

Yes, to a degree....but without it the line would have closed years ago.

I wonder whether there would be any value in through running from Newcastle?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I wonder whether there would be any value in through running from Newcastle?

From Newcastle to Whitby? Already a couple of daily through workings via Sunderland. (Three on Sundays).