Buying a ticket at the 'first available opportunity'

[wellhouse]

It seems unclear what obligation there is on a TOC to ensure how prominently an opportunity to purchase is presented.

Slaithwaite is an unstaffed station with separate entrances for each platform. Some months ago a card-only TVM was installed in the shelter on the eastbound platform. No signage has been provided drawing attention to it. The westbound platform is offset, so passengers can not even see across the tracks that a machine exists.

What seems unhelpful (and possibly unfair) is that on the Information Board at the westbound side, under the heading 'Station Specific Information For Slaithwaite', it says 'If there is one, you must buy your ticket from a ticket office or ticket vending machine before getting on the train'

If? Surely Station Specific Information should say when a TVM exists, and give directions to it.

 

[Rich McLean]

Cosford is like this as well, with the PTT at the bottom of the steps from the Wolves bound platform, which is hidden behind a building. If you were going towards Shrewsbury, and never boarded there before, you wouldn't know where it is, and its a PF station.

Most of the time I have used the station, the PTT machine has been U/S

 

[Fare-Cop]

Perhaps I am rather older than most members of this forum, but in respect of this OP, it was always the case in the 1960's and 1970's that it was COMMON SENSE to purchase a ticket prior to travel UNLESS you were travelling on one of the quieter "pay on the train" routes. Do people really need to be told that they should purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity? Demanding to see this common sense requirement actually written down in print or on station notice boards before the requirement is recognized as valid seems a little ridiculous to me.
Just as ridiculous as the fact that a modern day pavement repair requires a large sign with an arrow placed in front of the work. Do people these days really need a large red board informing them that they should walk around the works rather than continue straight ahead and falling down the hole.

Born 5 years before you and share similar thoughts.

It's a purely personal opinion of course, but I often wonder how humanity got to this level of sophistication without someone putting up signs and telling us how to do everything before 1980.

 

[Goatboy]

I'm completely with you except for the bit about novice travellers. Based on my own experience (and we were all novices at some point!), I think that novice travellers' default position would be that they have to buy a ticket before getting on any train, unless someone/a sign/a website has told them otherwise.

I disagree - it is quite reasonable for a novice traveller to expect that a ticket can be purchased on a train from a station with no obvious booking office or payment machines.

After all, if you wish to travel by other forms of public transport, ie bus, the ticket is purchased onboard the vehicle then, as well.

 

[benk1342]

After all, if you wish to travel by other forms of public transport, ie bus, the ticket is purchased onboard the vehicle then, as well.

Buses don't (generally) have stations. A better analogy is an airline. Does a novice air traveller expect to buy on board? What's the difference?

 

[Goatboy]

Buses don't (generally) have stations.

But they do have unmanned stops.

A better analogy is an airline. Does a novice air traveller expect to buy on board? What's the difference?

No, this is a terrible analogy - the clear difference is that you will never, ever board a plane without seeing a member of staff first. Airports are not unmanned. Railway stations often are.

It is also never the case in this country that there are occasions where it is expected that you purchase your plane ticket after takeoff. There are numerous situations where this is the case on the rail network.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Airlines again. You CANNOT board an aircraft without a ticket. Every airport has a MANNED ticket sales outlet. There are no stops en route where no ticket sales opportunities exist. And nobody onboard to check tickets. No permits to travel or other oddities. There is no comparision.

And those who reminisce about.....
- the 60s have perhaps forgotten that every station (with a TINY number of exceptions - "halts") had a staffed ticket sales point. So that was consistent and came to be expected. So yes, perhaps you would assume you'd buy a ticket before boarding. Whereas here in the tenties stations have a variety of facilities including some or all of: staffed offices, machines, PTT machines or nothing at all depending on where they are so there is no consistency; and all on-train ticket staff have the facility (if not the will) to sell pretty much any ticket.
- the 70s have perhaps overlooked that people riding on "paytrains" HAD to buy onboard or not at all; tickets for paytrain routes were not sold at staffed stations served by such trains.
So the nostalgia thing doesn't really work, either.

 

[benk1342]

It is also never the case in this country that there are occasions where it is expected that you purchase your plane ticket after takeoff. There are numerous situations where this is the case on the rail network.

Right, which ties in with my original point. The belief that it is ok to buy onboard is cultural/learned, not automatic. So as I think was touched on earlier in the thread it makes a difference whether you mean "a novice traveller who grew up in parts of England where it is the norm to buy onboard" vs "a novice traveller who has arrived in the UK for the first time and has never used a train before". I was assuming the latter when the OP referred to novice travellers, but it seems he had the former more in mind.

 

[Deerfold]

Right, which ties in with my original point. The belief that it is ok to buy onboard is cultural/learned, not automatic. So as I think was touched on earlier in the thread it makes a difference whether you mean "a novice traveller who grew up in parts of England where it is the norm to buy onboard" vs "a novice traveller who has arrived in the UK for the first time and has never used a train before". I was assuming the latter when the OP referred to novice travellers, but it seems he had the former more in mind.

Or a traveller who got used to trains in the 80s which were paytrains and advertsing for them told you you must buy on the train.

 

[bb21]

Can we stop all these analogies with buses and planes please. They are not helpful at all.

Depending on where you grew up in the country, you get used to different customs and arrangements. If you grew up around the concept of "pay trains" then you would normally expect to be able to board without being able to purchase beforehand, whereas if you grew up in an area where Penalty Fares applied, you would think completely differently.

If one comes from a different country, then claiming that the practice is different from the one in your home country is not going to go down well, as the onus is on you to find out how people do things in a different country. (Not that it makes things simpler where out railways are concerned granted.)

 

[sheff1]

Can we stop all these analogies with buses and planes please. They are not helpful at all.

I don't think anyone has mentioned trams yet

Trams, of course, are the most similar vehicles to trains. In Sheffield (and, as far as I recall, in Nottigham and Birmingham as well) you pay the conductor on board. The tram stops are not disimilar with regards to facilities (lack of) to the small unmaned stations nearby. At Birmingham Snow Hill you actually board within a genuine railway station and walk past the ticket office before you do so.

If you grew up around the concept of "pay trains" then you would normally expect to be able to board without being able to purchase beforehand

This, to me, is an important point which seems to be overlooked or not understood by many people outwith such areas.

When Paytrains were introduced there was clear publicity that you could NOT buy tickets at the station booking office but must buy them on the train. When the policy changed I do not recall anywhere near the volume of such clear publicity. One might have thought that such publicity was essential if the aim was to change ingrained practices dating back 40 odd years.

 

[Goatboy]

Right, which ties in with my original point. The belief that it is ok to buy onboard is cultural/learned, not automatic.

So the answer is clear and simple.

Clear and visible information on exactly what you must do in order to travel by train from each station and the consequences of not doing it. This must include, where appropriate, clear directions to the TVM or similar.

 

[ryan125hst]

I don't think anyone has mentioned trams yet

Trams, of course, are the most similar vehicles to trains. In Sheffield (and, as far as I recall, in Nottigham and Birmingham as well) you pay the conductor on board. The tram stops are not disimilar with regards to facilities (lack of) to the small unmaned stations nearby. At Birmingham Snow Hill you actually board within a genuine railway station and walk past the ticket office before you do so.

Yet Manchester Metrolink requires passengers to buy tickets before they travel (I think- I'm sure there was a thread about it a few months ago), so once again there are different policies which may cause confusion and unfair punishment.

If one comes from a different country, then claiming that the practice is different from the one in your home country is not going to go down well, as the onus is on you to find out how people do things in a different country. (Not that it makes things simpler where out railways are concerned granted.)

Would an RPI show any discretion to someone who was clearly on holiday from another country? With the system as it is, it must be confusing for foreign tourists, particularly if they can't speak English.

 

[sheff1]

So the answer is clear and simple.

Clear and visible information on exactly what you must do in order to travel by train from each station and the consequences of not doing it. This must include, where appropriate, clear directions to the TVM or similar.

This is exactly the type of publicity I was referring to.

Without it, why would anyone go seeking out a possible newly installed TVM, maybe hidden on the opposite platform, at a station which has not had one for the previous 20/30 years.

Would an RPI show any discretion to someone who was clearly on holiday from another country? With the system as it is, it must be confusing for foreign tourists, particularly if they can't speak English.

Would probably depend on the RPI. Being a frequent traveller in Europe, it is noticeable that signs warning about penalties for ticketless travel on trains/trams are usually also in languages other than the local one - not just English, but languages such as Polish/Turkish/Italian etc, reflecting the local demographic. I can't say I have seen this in the UK, even around London, although I have seen mutlilingual signs regarding safety features oin some trains.

 

[All Line Rover]

This story (please read it before replying to this post) is precisely what gets my goat. A law-abiding citizen who wanted to buy a ticket, but like the average person didn't think of searching their arrival station for the 'hidden' ticket office, gets lumbered with an £80 'fine' on threat of prosecution simply for being unfamiliar with the nuances of rail ticketing.

Imagine I had travelled from an unmanned station near Blackburn and did not have the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board, but still had the full intention of purchasing one on arrival at Blackburn. Imagine I'm not 'clued up' about railways, and don't travel to Blackburn often so am unfamiliar with the layout of the station. On arrival at Blackburn I fail to spot the obscure ticket office on the platform so naturally walk to the entrance of the station, assuming the ticket office will be located there. As I walk to the entrance of the station, do I spot any signs notifying me that I should return to the platform to buy a ticket as there is a ticket office located there? Oh no! But I do happen to encounter some lovely RPIs, who instead of directing me to the ticket office to buy a ticket, happily issue me with an £80 'fine' on threat of prosecution.

Blackburn station has an unusual layout. There have been numerous threads on this forum regarding Blackburn, so it is evident that passengers get 'caught out' there on a regular basis. Is it beyond Northern's whit to display posters at the station - say along the stairs leading from the platforms to the concourse - informing passengers that anyone without a ticket must return to platform x to buy a ticket from the ticket office located there? If they did this I would have no problem with passengers still caught walking out of the station without a valid ticket being given an £80 'fine.' But evidently Northern think this sensible approach is totally inappropriate. Instead they prefer to entrap innocent passengers and extract disproportionate sums of money from them, bullying them with threatening letters and court action if they refuse to pay up. What does our "independent passenger watchdog", Passenger Focus, whose "mission is to get the best deal for passengers" have to say about the matter? Apparently they accept such schemes - even support them! The mind boggles. :roll:

 

[benk1342]

Can we stop all these analogies with buses and planes please. They are not helpful at all.

I'm not sure I agree that analogies are not helpful. The issue was how would a novice traveller approach the situation of whether to buy on board. A novice (train) traveller by definition has no experience using trains. Analogies are what he or she would rely on to make a decision.

 

[edwin_m]

Yet Manchester Metrolink requires passengers to buy tickets before they travel (I think- I'm sure there was a thread about it a few months ago), so once again there are different policies which may cause confusion and unfair punishment.

Yes it does. Croydon too. Nottingham is in transition to a system of buying tickets before boarding. Sheffield started off with buying before boarding but quite quickly got conductors when the machines were stolen. Can't speak for Blackpool since renovation but it used to have conductors.

Confused... you will be.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm not sure I agree that analogies are not helpful. The issue was how would a novice traveller approach the situation of whether to buy on board. A novice (train) traveller by definition has no experience using trains. Analogies are what he or she would rely on to make a decision.

By 'novice', I wasn't referring to those who have never used trains before, but to those who aren't familiar with the quirks of rail ticketing. That probably covers the majority of travellers. In the case of Nantwich, which has many Manchester commuters, even regular commuters who have always purchased their weekly seasons on-board are unlikely to be aware that the introduction of the single TVM means they must now purchase their seasons from the TVM prior to boarding.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure I agree that analogies are not helpful. The issue was how would a novice traveller approach the situation of whether to buy on board. A novice (train) traveller by definition has no experience using trains. Analogies are what he or she would rely on to make a decision.

No, sorry but I don't agree.

For a complete novice, the onus would be on him/her to find out how the system operates. Why would you assume that the railway works in exactly the same manner as the buses, or travelling by plane?

There is plenty of scope for confusion however if you come from a different area of the country as naturally one would expect the practice within the railway industry to be consistent.

Yet Manchester Metrolink requires passengers to buy tickets before they travel (I think- I'm sure there was a thread about it a few months ago), so once again there are different policies which may cause confusion and unfair punishment.

I encountered a good example which illustrates the confusion. I was on a Nottingham tram yesterday and we were waiting at Station Street. A passenger came up to the driver and asked him how he could purchase his tickets as there was no machine on the platform. The driver replied that there is a conductor onboard. The passenger thanked him and proceeded to explain that he was from Manchester where if you don't buy before boarding you could be charged £100, which the driver was visibly shocked by.

Would an RPI show any discretion to someone who was clearly on holiday from another country? With the system as it is, it must be confusing for foreign tourists, particularly if they can't speak English.

The industry guidelines do recommend that more discretion is exercised to passengers from another country.

 

[broadgage]

I have never been to Blackburn, but it certainly sounds like deliberate entrapment to me.
Any reasonable person needing to buy a ticket would reasonably assume that the ticket office was located in or near the station concourse or entrance unless indicated otherwise by clear signs.

Likewise at an unmaned station, a reasonable person would reasonably assume that the ticket machine would be in clear sight, or be signposted.
I do not think it reasonable that the machine should be hidden in a shelter on another platform.

This sort of behaviour reinforces the widely held view that railway ticketing is not only hugely complex, but is actually DESIGNED to trap people and "fine" them.

If I boarded a train at an unfamiliar, unmanned station with no visable ticket machine and was later "fined" for failing to thoroughly search all areas for a possible hidden ticket machine I would be most aggrieved.

Whilst I would never assualt an RPI or other employee for doing their job, I can partialy understand those who consider the £80 "fine" in such cases to be simple theft and who are tempted to deal with the "thief" as they would a mugger.

 

[sheff1]

Sheffield started off with buying before boarding but quite quickly got conductors when the machines were stolen.

Rather more to it than that, but I won't sidetrack the discussion.

 

[FenMan]

A4 notices in plastic folders have just been pinned to the shelters at Blackwater (FGW Penalty Fares station with two card-only TVMs).

The notices advise customers who wish to pay by cash that they should board the rear coach and purchase a ticket from the guard.

RPIs have been much more active recently on this section of the North Downs Line, however, traditionally, guards have been happy to sell a full range of tickets on board these services.

Perhaps this has changed? (I haven't tested this thesis )

 

[Bill Badger]

A4 notices in plastic folders have just been pinned to the shelters at Blackwater (FGW Penalty Fares station with two card-only TVMs).

The notices advise customers who wish to pay by cash that they should board the rear coach and purchase a ticket from the guard.

RPIs have been much more active recently on this section of the North Downs Line, however, traditionally, guards have been happy to sell a full range of tickets on board these services.

Perhaps this has changed? (I haven't tested this thesis )

The same signs have appeared at Farnborough North, the next station down from Blackwater. Last week my partner did precisely what the signs asked he to, and asked to go and sit down and the guard would come and sell her a ticket later.

No sign of the guard for 20 minutes, by which time she was approaching Guildford, went back to his cab, knocked on the door and asked again for a ticket, which the guard had forgotten about. Then he couldn't get his ticket machine to work, so told her to just get off.

She protested that she would just get grief at the barriers, so he tried to get the machine to work again and this time managed to sell her a ticket.

I'm fully supportive of penalty fare schemes, but FGW seem to try to run theirs without the proper facilities and equipment; in stark contrast to SWT, where it appears to work much better.

 

[beeza1]

Just been checking my local, current, timetable issued by Northern, under the heading "Tickets" it states;

"When boarding at unstaffed stations, you must buy your ticket on the train unless you already have a valid ticket or pass."

It also states:

"If your journey starts at a station where no staff are in attendance, you can buy your ticket from the conductor on the train."

So, according to Northern there is no obligation to use a TVM.
I find this information at the very least confusing, if not deceptive.

Whilst on this topic, I travel between unstaffed stations fairly often, most times the Guard comes round for fares but, sometimes they don't seem to bother, what am I supposed to do? I know there is no obligation to go and find the Guard. When I have got off at my destination I have approached the guard on the platform and been told "It's OK, just go", I realise there is little chance of ticket checks "in the middle of nowhere", but how would I explain it if there was?
Strange thing is, it always seems to be the same Guards who don't, for whatever reason, come round collecting fares.

 

[34D]

Perhaps I am rather older than most members of this forum, but in respect of this OP, it was always the case in the 1960's and 1970's that it was COMMON SENSE to purchase a ticket prior to travel UNLESS you were travelling on one of the quieter "pay on the train" routes. Do people really need to be told that they should purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity? Demanding to see this common sense requirement actually written down in print or on station notice boards before the requirement is recognized as valid seems a little ridiculous to me.
Just as ridiculous as the fact that a modern day pavement repair requires a large sign with an arrow placed in front of the work. Do people these days really need a large red board informing them that they should walk around the works rather than continue straight ahead and falling down the hole.

This is the point: many of the examples in this thread (I believe Nantwich, Todmorden, Slaithwaite, possibly Duffield) _are_ the old PayTrain stations of the 1970s and 80s.

And you can't be that old: though when I think that I've had mainline class 40 haulage from other than 40122 and 40145 I probably _am_ old. Anyway I digress.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it?
In Corbyn v Saunders the judgement clarifies that to walk past an opportunity to buy a ticket can be construed as 'intent to avoid payment.' And as I tried to elaborate, albeit rather clumsily, it has been inferred from that analysis of walking past an opportunity which provides evidence of 'intent', that the same 'intent' can even be evidenced by walking past the first opportunity.

This is how Corbyn is applied to hundreds of suspected instances of fare evasion daily. Any subsequent "being asked to pay later" is immaterial to the test (though does raise other issues).

How literally can we construct the words 'walking past' do you think?

If the machine is at entrance 1, and we walk straight from the public highway to entrance 2 (which is perhaps on a different side of the station) is that 'walking past'?

 

[Fare-Cop]

If the machine is at entrance 1, and we walk straight from the public highway to entrance 2 (which is perhaps on a different side of the station) is that 'walking past'?

Dave's post refers to the judgment in Corbyn, which describes the action as an intention to avoid a fare if you do not take the opportunity to pay by not using any available machine / ticket office.

The judgment starts that explanation by saying ' knowing that a fare is due.. '

It is fairly clear that, if you know a fare is due it's your responsibility to pay before boarding any train and therefore you need to check whether facilities are available to do so.

Assuming that there are none just because you use an entrance that is not right next to the facility does not negate that responsibility, though I agree that many stations could benefit from signage that makes the location of facilities clearer.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I wonder what constitues an opportunity; what consitutes "walking past...."

If a station is equipped, say, with a single TVM which is on the opposite platform to the one you need to use; if there are direct entrances from the public highway to both platforms; if in fact to get from one platform to the other you HAVE to exit the station onto the public highway, then, if you enter the (unequipped) platform directly from the street, have you missed an opportunity and/or walked past the machine?

And, if the answer to this is "yes" then it begs the question (which presumably could only be answered by case law) - in the absence of a single station entrance with vending facilities therein, how far from the place where you need to board the train may a TVM be situated to be deemed to represent an opportunity to purchase?

(South Elmsall as an example, travelling towards Doncaster).

 

[Flamingo]

I wonder what constitues an opportunity; what consitutes "walking past...."

If a station is equipped, say, with a single TVM which is on the opposite platform to the one you need to use; if there are direct entrances from the public highway to both platforms; if in fact to get from one platform to the other you HAVE to exit the station onto the public highway, then, if you enter the (unequipped) platform directly from the street, have you missed an opportunity and/or walked past the machine?

And, if the answer to this is "yes" then it begs the question (which presumably could only be answered by case law) - in the absence of a single station entrance with vending facilities therein, how far from the place where you need to board the train may a TVM be situated to be deemed to represent an opportunity to purchase?

(South Elmsall as an example, travelling towards Doncaster).

Well, if it is part of the station, and within the perimeter of the station, then it is an opportunity to purchase.

It may not be in a convenient location for every person entering the station, but this is confusing "Customer Service" with a legal obligation to pay for the journey.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I wonder what constitues an opportunity; what consitutes "walking past...."

If a station is equipped, say, with a single TVM which is on the opposite platform to the one you need to use; if there are direct entrances from the public highway to both platforms; if in fact to get from one platform to the other you HAVE to exit the station onto the public highway, then, if you enter the (unequipped) platform directly from the street, have you missed an opportunity and/or walked past the machine?

And, if the answer to this is "yes" then it begs the question (which presumably could only be answered by case law) - in the absence of a single station entrance with vending facilities therein, how far from the place where you need to board the train may a TVM be situated to be deemed to represent an opportunity to purchase?

(South Elmsall as an example, travelling towards Doncaster).

As Flamingo says, provided that the facility is within the area that is the station, the distance from the ticket machine or booking office to the platform from which the traveller wishes to leave has no bearing on the liability for payment of a fare.

As an example the Northern Rail station at Earlestown has a booking office, which is some distance from the platforms used by most commuters and which can be directly accessed from the street, but several recent convictions have been recorded by Magistrates where travellers seem to have offered defences that 'it was too far to walk in inclement weather' and 'didn't have time because it was so far to go and the train was approaching'.

Clearly this cannot be quoted as 'case law' because it is only a Magistrates Court decision, but is indicative of how Magistrates may view the allegation.

In these cases the Court considered that:

i) the traveller did not already hold a ticket and knew that a fare was due,
ii) that Northern Rail had provided the facility for pre-purchase
and
iii) the traveller knew where the ticket office was, but had made the arbitrary decision not to use it.

It is unlikely that the same decision would have been reached in the case of a disabled traveller, but then it is equally unlikely that a prosecution could be properly brought in such a case.

 

[34D]

At south Elmsall, a wheelchair user accessing the machine (which is on the Leeds bound platform) would involve a 10 minute journey via three local streets.

I don't see how posters on here can say "walked past an opportunity to pay" when it is so far away.