Buying an extra ticket to claim additional seat for luggage

[Yorkshirebelle]

The following is just out of interest as this was something I came across last weekend on a journey between Leeds and London Kings Cross (apologies if I have failed to find a thread that would of given me the answer!).

The passenger in question was being asked by a fellow passenger to kindly remove her bag from the seat next to her but she refused. The reason for this was she had paid for that addition seat!! When asked to explain further she said she had bought two advanced tickets, one adult ticket for herself and then one child ticket so she had additional room to work!! (There was no use of any railcards etc).

So, my question is is the above scenario permitted? Obviously, morally, if it was standing room only, I appreciate that it probably should not be allowed but is there anything to prevent passengers from actually doing this?

 

[TheKnightWho]

The following is just out of interest as this was something I came across last weekend on a journey between Leeds and London Kings Cross (apologies if I have failed to find a thread that would of given me the answer!).

The passenger in question was being asked by a fellow passenger to kindly remove her bag from the seat next to her but she refused. The reason for this was she had paid for that addition seat!! When asked to explain further she said she had bought two advanced tickets, one adult ticket for herself and then one child ticket so she had additional room to work!! (There was no use of any railcards etc).

So, my question is is the above scenario permitted? Obviously, morally, if it was standing room only, I appreciate that it probably should not be allowed but is there anything to prevent passengers from actually doing this?

Your ticket entitles you (and your baggage) to be on board the train. It does not entitle you to an extra seat, even if you've managed to reserve as well. I believe that a reservation can only apply to a person, so if there's only one person, there's only one reservation that can be in use at any time.

 

[IanD]

Your ticket entitles you (and your baggage) to be on board the train. It does not entitle you to an extra seat, even if you've managed to reserve as well. I believe that a reservation can only apply to a person, so if there's only one person, there's only one reservation that can be in use at any time.

But of course the terms of Advance tickets state that you must occupy the allocated reserved seat.

And on plenty of threads we have rail staff saying they announce that they will levy a charge for seats occupied by luggage if it isn't removed. Sounds like this passenger was simply pre-empting that by paying up front.

(Obviously, I'd have told her where to go and shifted her stuff and sat down - even if there were other seats available)

 

[SeanG]

AP tickets do not state that you must occupy the specifically reserved seat.

You merely have to be on the train specified by your AP ticket.

I, for example, often go and remove the ticket if mine is the only reservation on it, and then stand at the window on a HST

 

[Zoe]

AP tickets do not state that you must occupy the specifically reserved seat.

You merely have to be on the train specified by your AP ticket.

I, for example, often go and remove the ticket if mine is the only reservation on it, and then stand at the window on a HST

The terms and conditions of advance tickets do require that you travel in your booked seat although this isn't always applicable with advance tickets as with some journeys (London Midland for example) seats are not allocated and you are only booked on a specific train. This is very rarely enforced but I have read that on East Coast people have occasionally been asked to move to their booked seat.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

 

[IanD]

AP tickets do not state that you must occupy the specifically reserved seat.

You merely have to be on the train specified by your AP ticket.

You will most likely be allowed to do this but I'd suggest you read the T&Cs you've signed up to when purchasing advanced tickets and you'll find that you are mistaken in your assertion.

I, for example, often go and remove the ticket if mine is the only reservation on it, and then stand at the window on a HST

Then you may be liable for the penalty for unauthorised removal as stated on the label.

 

[34D]

Your ticket entitles you (and your baggage) to be on board the train. It does not entitle you to an extra seat, even if you've managed to reserve as well. I believe that a reservation can only apply to a person, so if there's only one person, there's only one reservation that can be in use at any time.

I agree with this.

What happened in the scenario being discussed?

 

[thelongestroad]

Sounds like a loose-loose situation from this conductor's point of view!

 

[Roverman]

Only if the conductor has no confidence, surely the moment she becomes difficult you just call BTP and remove her?

 

[ainsworth74]

Then you may be liable for the penalty for unauthorised removal as stated on the label.

It would be interesting to see that one play out, the person for whom the label was placed decides to remove it as they don't intent to make use of the reservation. If nothing else the media would have a field day with that one...

 

[Zoe]

It would be interesting to see that one play out, the person for whom the label was placed decides to remove it as they don't intent to make use of the reservation.

But when they have a ticket that requires that they make use of the reservation, couldn't it be argued that not intending to make use of the reservation is not an option?

 

[yorksrob]

Wouldn‘t not occupying the seat (with a person) count as a form of travelling short ?

I often ask fellow passengers to move their luggage from the seat if the train is occupied, and if I ever come across this tool, I‘ll certainly be speaking to the guard.

 

[tsr]

Does that therefore mean that if I fail to occupy my seat at the start of my journey due to a visit to the buffet car, say before a queue forms during the journey, I am starting short?

 

[Trog]

Or if the guard apprehends you on the way to the loo have you been caught short?

 

[455driver]

Or if the guard apprehends you on the way to the loo have you been caught short?

No of course not but if they keep you there too long you will definitely be in the sh#t though!

 

[Kristofferson]

I frequently move from my reserved seat to an available seat on VT because I don't like the pillar view, or to let a group of 4 sit together when they have 3 out of 4 table seats reserved and I have the remaining one reserved.

None of the TMs have ever said anything, and seat reservations don't really seem to be respected on quiet VT services anyway.

 

[cuccir]

Does that therefore mean that if I fail to occupy my seat at the start of my journey due to a visit to the buffet car, say before a queue forms during the journey, I am starting short?

Hehe... though I'd be pretty grumpy if I did not have a reservation, sat in the seat when no-one showed up, and then someone turned up 10 minutes later claiming the seat. I think it's etiquette to go the seat and at least deposit a hat/jumper/book on there first to indicate that it's taken!

 

[TRAINLINCS]

National Rail Conditions of Carriage states - A TICKET MAY ONLY BE USED BY THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT THAT TICKET OR THE PERSON ON WHOSE BEHALF THAT TICKET WAS BOUGHT.
My interpretation of the situation would be -
The lady could not use the ticket and it's associated reservation as it was for a child and she would be in serious trouble if she tried. The child could not use the ticket unless they were on the train therefore the seat is free for a non show unless they turn up to claim it during the journey.
If the lady had two adult tickets would this change the situation - I don't know. How would a ticket inspector view the situation.

 

[IanD]

Some stuff on this on this thread from last year:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62347

 

[Trainfan344]

On a Norwich to London service a few weeks ago, found my reserve seat with pilar view, sat in it from Norwich to diss and then moved to find a better seat, find a seat reserved from Norwich not occupied, then 10 minutes later someone comes and claims i'm in their seats, fortunately they weren't too bothered and train carriage was half empty.

 

[Flamingo]

Regarding the OP, here is what I posted last year on the thread Ian linked to.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1032356&postcount=28

. To answer the OP's question, no the guard was incorrect and it is unenforceable (and even if a ticket was bought, the bag still couldn't stay on the seat - see threads passim).

However, the guard DOES have the right to move any luggage that is causing an obstruction or interfering with the comfort of other passengers to a more suitable place, and does not have to get permission from the owner before doing that. If the train was crowded, that could include removing it to the platform and advising the passenger to join it and wait for another less crowded train.

It still stands - it doesn't matter if the passenger bought four tickets and wanted the whole table to themselves, the rule, putting it bluntly, is that the only thing that can occupy a seat is a bum. Anything else on a seat has to be moved if another fare-paying passenger wants to put their bum on it.

I've had this discussion numerous times. I don't threaten to charge another ticket - I threathen to remove the obstruction. It has never failed yet, my name has been taken numerous times, but I have yet to have a "please explain" from my manager.

 

[sarahj]

When I've done the buy another ticket announcement, I've always said 'Full adult fare' . Never had to follow it up in many years, people get the message.
TBH most issues are people with massive suitcases blocking the aisle. Had one the other day and the pass went off on one when I asked her to move it. It got moved.

 

[Lockwood]

If the train was crowded, that could include removing it to the platform and advising the passenger to join it and wait for another less crowded train.

Wouldn't that require purchasing an additional ticket if the passenger was originally on an advance?

 

[Flamingo]

Wouldn't that require purchasing an additional ticket if the passenger was originally on an advance?

Yep

 

[trainophile]

Regarding the OP, here is what I posted last year on the thread Ian linked to.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1032356&postcount=28


It still stands - it doesn't matter if the passenger bought four tickets and wanted the whole table to themselves, the rule, putting it bluntly, is that the only thing that can occupy a seat is a bum. Anything else on a seat has to be moved if another fare-paying passenger wants to put their bum on it.

I've had this discussion numerous times. I don't threaten to charge another ticket - I threathen to remove the obstruction. It has never failed yet, my name has been taken numerous times, but I have yet to have a "please explain" from my manager.

On a pretty crowded train once, a woman with her leg in a plaster cast on the facing seat refused to let someone sit on the seat as she needed it for her leg. Wonder how that would be viewed, if she'd had the foresight to buy a ticket for the extra seat (not sure if she had - she wasn't challenged by the passenger who managed to find a seat elsewhere).

 

[Flamingo]

On a pretty crowded train once, a woman with her leg in a plaster cast on the facing seat refused to let someone sit on the seat as she needed it for her leg. Wonder how that would be viewed, if she'd had the foresight to buy a ticket for the extra seat (not sure if she had - she wasn't challenged by the passenger who managed to find a seat elsewhere).

If it wasn't her bum on the seat, then it doesn't count

That could be a difficult one to deal with, I've never ran across it, thankfully!

 

[jon0844]

I've never ran across it

But someone else possibly did - in their car.

 

[Flamingo]

Very good

 

[maniacmartin]

The newer versions of the NRCoC have this in section 47:

Luggage should not occupy seats intended for passengers; if it does so, it may be
charged for as set out in Appendix B

However Appendix B is silent on what these charges might be.

 

[Yorkshirebelle]

Well thanks to everyone who has posted a reply, the general view being it is not permitted!

The outcome of the scenario I quoted was the conductor having a quiet word explaining that, no matter what ticket she had purchased, it is not valid for her luggage or anything else she may have wanted to do with her 'space' as there simply isn't that ticket 'type' to allow such things. So, after a little more argument from the woman's side it was suggested that if space was so important to her she should upgrade to first class - which she did begrudgingly!

Amazing what some people do (or indeed think they should be allowed to do) on a train, never fails to surprise me :roll: