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Bylaws and Conditions of Carraige

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222007

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I was thinking on the way home from work today and i wondered if we should as an industry be displaying these two very important things. Often on this and many other railway forums we have people have have been caught out by either one of these. Could we not have posters put up displaying this information? Whether people read them or not is a different matter but at least TOC's can say well the information was displayed.

You views please?
 
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Solent&Wessex

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There is a poster displaying the Byelaws and NRCoC on display at Manchester Piccadilly. It takes up, from memory, about 2 posters at about font size 10.
 

142094

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Probably easier to have it in leaflet form, and where you don't have to ask at a counter for it.

TPE have certain selections of NRCoC on their trains (and announcements), most of which need additional info (such as not being charged the full anytime fare if you got on at a station that was unmanned).
 

Solent&Wessex

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Where abouts is that? I've never seen it myself.

It used to be in the poster boards stuck to the side of a pillar near to Thornton's Chocolate shop. However, I've looked this afternoon and it isn't there anymore. I'll have a look and see if I can see it elsewhere.

 

Old Timer

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I have a feeling that many, many years ago we used to have Byelaw posters that were displayed.

Every booking office window had a sign or sticker on the glass which stated that tickets were issued in accordance with the Conditions of Carriage, and that a copy was available for inspection.

It was an old trick question as to whether or not a booking office could open if there was no copy of the Conditions of Carriage - the answer being NO.
 

Michael.Y

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ATW have a passenger "code of conduct" in our trains.

Which, needless to say, goes largely ignored.
 

First class

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Every booking office window had a sign or sticker on the glass which stated that tickets were issued in accordance with the Conditions of Carriage, and that a copy was available for inspection.

It was an old trick question as to whether or not a booking office could open if there was no copy of the Conditions of Carriage - the answer being NO.

I believe that is still technically the case. Although unless the internet went down, you could always just print one.
 

bnm

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Probably easier to have it in leaflet form, and where you don't have to ask at a counter for it.

Used to be the case that you could pick up a copy of the NRCoC at any manned station. Now if you want the full document, you are either directed to t'internet or have to wait while it is printed off for you.... :roll:

You aren't very popular if you do request a full copy. Takes a little while for 30 pages to print out....
 

First class

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Used to be the case that you could pick up a copy of the NRCoC at any manned station. Now if you want the full document, you are either directed to t'internet or have to wait while it is printed off for you.... :roll:

There used to be a gentleman who visited a certain WM station. Absolutely EVERY time he purchased a ticket, for at least a good 3-4 months, whether two stops or further afield, he got them to print the NRCoC as per he is entitled. Used to cause a lot of unhappy commuters in the rush hour. They eventually just printed a load off and put them to the side for him.

No idea why he did it, most thought he was a Mystery Shopper.
 

bnm

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Whilst that is a little extreme, I kinda understand. The NRCoC should be available whenever requested. In my experience, most stations these days do not even have a reference copy to hand should it be requested.

It's penny pinching in the extreme for ATOC to no longer produce the full booklet. Or to even provide manned stations with a reference copy.
 

First class

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Whilst that is a little extreme, I kinda understand. The NRCoC should be available whenever requested. In my experience, most stations these days do not even have a reference copy to hand should it be requested.

It's penny pinching in the extreme for ATOC to no longer produce the full booklet. Or to even provide manned stations with a reference copy.

I still think they withdrew it because they thought they could make changes to it without having to have a mass-mailing project. Don't think it's down to finance, more the flexibility to "amend" the terms whenever DfT sign them off.
 

tsr

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Put very simply, the law in England and Wales says that goods or services that may (or, indeed, definitely do) have terms and conditions of use applied to them must have those terms and conditions clearly displayed at the time of purchase. I am shocked that Groupsave tickets on Southern (and likely elsewhere) are not sold with this in mind - none of the extra terms and conditions are stated. TVMs are another example where I can see problems arising. I would imagine that there are signs, posters or window stickers in the majority of staffed stations advising that tickets are sold in accordance with the NRCoC.

On a more humorous note, imagine if the NRCoC and the byelaws were printed on normal-size ticket stock...
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....Every booking office window had a sign or sticker on the glass which stated that tickets were issued in accordance with the Conditions of Carriage, and that a copy was available for inspection....

They still should have.

I still think they withdrew it because they thought they could make changes to it without having to have a mass-mailing project. Don't think it's down to finance, more the flexibility to "amend" the terms whenever DfT sign them off.

Cost is certainly an issue, it costs less to have it printable on the net than printed out and distributed to stations, particularly if the TOC isn't paying for the paper or ink.

Put very simply, the law in England and Wales says that good or services that may (or, indeed, definitely do) have terms and conditions of use applied to them must have those terms and conditions clearly displayed at the time of purchase. I am shocked that Groupsave tickets on Southern (and likely elsewhere) are not sold with this in mind - none of the extra terms and conditions are stated. TVMs are another example where I can see problems arising....

There is a sign at all ticket offices (it should be on the window) that says that all tickets are sold subject to the NRCoC (they were also on the old quickfare machines so I expect similar to be in place on the current crop of TVMs). The NRCoC can be viewed at the time of purchase (or before) and it says that any conditions that are specific to the ticket must be mentioned at the time of sale (or details of how to get them should be given). With 'advance' fares you should get a small card saying what the conditions are, you should also be told the conditions, other tickets may have cards or leaflets with the details. I don't know how that translates into law, but that is what there is.
 

First class

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Put very simply, the law in England and Wales says that good or services that may (or, indeed, definitely do) have terms and conditions of use applied to them must have those terms and conditions clearly displayed at the time of purchase. I am shocked that Groupsave tickets on Southern (and likely elsewhere) are not sold with this in mind - none of the extra terms and conditions are stated. TVMs are another example where I can see problems arising. I would imagine that there are signs, posters or window stickers in the majority of staffed stations advising that tickets are sold in accordance with the NRCoC.

On a more humorous note, imagine if the NRCoC and the byelaws were printed on normal-size ticket stock...

What law is that then?
 

tsr

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What law is that then?

The organisations selling tickets (and therefore services) relating to the railways are not exempt from certain trading laws that apply whenever you purchase goods or enter into a contract to have services provided to you. Naturally, there may be other laws, rules and regulations applied.

To be pedantic, I am sure your chosen qualified legal professional will be able to advise you about this. Also, I don't want to get into an argument, and therefore I won't. ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, the font is about as accurate as using the timetable to predict when a FCC train will turn up, but shush ;)

It's still amusing... :D

P.S. You meant more accurate, didn't you? :roll:
 
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Old Timer

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The organisations selling tickets (and therefore services) relating to the railways are not exempt from certain trading laws that apply whenever you purchase goods or enter into a contract to have services provided to you. Naturally, there may be other laws, rules and regulations applied.
I am sorry but that is quite incorrect and a statement of opinion not fact. Railway tickets are not subject to the same terms as goods in a shop because Consumer law primarily deals with property which involves the legal transfer of ownership, or services which result in either a tangible element (such as plumbing or electrical work) or the supply of say electricity or an internet service.

Railway, bus, airline and other forms of travel come under different legislation.
 

michael769

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What law is that then?

Parker v South Eastern Railway [1877] 2 CPD 416L: A party wishing to rely on any clause in a contract must bring it to the attention of the customer. A notice on a ticket cannot be expected to be read.

Olley v Marlborough Court Hotel [1949] 1 KB 532: Conditions notified after a contract is formed cannot be enforced.
 
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First class

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Parker v South Eastern Railway [1877] 2 CPD 416L: A party wishing to rely on any clause in a contract must bring it to the attention of the customer. A notice on a ticket cannot be expected to be read.

Olley v Marlborough Court Hotel [1949] 1 KB 532: Conditions notified after a contract is formed cannot be enforced.

With regards to Parker v South Eastern Railway, from limited education on this matter, I conclude that somebody purchasing a ticket, at a location where no notice referring to the NRCoC is available prior to that transaction, then the Train Company could not enforce PARTS of the NRCoC, such as Condition 52, which excludes liability for costs exceeding £1000.

Are you saying that the NRCoC is entirely exclusion clauses or am I misunderstanding the context of this case law?
 

ralphchadkirk

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It's slightly more complicated than you make out Michael. Lord Justice Mellish said: "that if the person did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing, and knew or believed that the writing contained conditions then he is bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing on the ticket but did not know or believe that the writing contained conditions, nevertheless he would be bound, if the delivering of the ticket was in such a manner that he could see the writing upon it, was, in the opinion of the jury, reasonable notice that the writing contained conditions."


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DaveNewcastle

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In circumstances where Parker v South Eastern Railway may help, there was subsequent clarification to that Judgement from Lord Denning in Spurling vs Bradshaw (1956) : "I agree that the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it."

This doesn't give us any definitive requirements in terms of publicising Conditions, and certainly does not give us any ground to say that any particular Condition is unenforceable, but it is reasonable to assume that if there were to be a challenge then Counsel would refer to these authorities. Of course, Denning did not go on to define what he meant by "more unreasonable", so I think he only gave us an avenue for argument rather than a distinction.

Where I find these Judgements are most helpful is in considering what reasonable efforts a TOC (or any other entity) makes in communicating their Conditions to passengers. Anyone deliberately omitting a Condition, or publicising it in an obscure position away from more prominent Conditions may have no difficulty in enforcing their Condition, but they should also expect to have greater difficulty in sustaining it in any legal challenge.
 

tsr

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Where I find these Judgements are most helpful is in considering what reasonable efforts a TOC (or any other entity) makes in communicating their Conditions to passengers.

Perhaps it is also helpful, although not necessarily from a legal point of view, to remind ourselves that most TOCs, etc., do not communicate their conditions to passengers, but, rather, will at some point assume that they have made known the existence of the document containing the conditions.

Put another way, I am sure there must be a difference between assuming that customers know of the existence of the document containing the conditions and actually displaying the conditions in a readable manner to the customers at the time of their transactions.

Bear in mind that the ticket/tickets is/are generally handed over after the financial transaction, and that the ticket/tickets may occasionally be the first place where the existence of the conditions will be made known.

In addition, how many passengers notice or know the existence of the conditions? I shouldn't think that the majority of passengers can tell you what the NRCoC are, and they probably have only a vague recollection of their existence. Believe it or not, most people are probably not in touch with the conditions.

And that's to say nothing of the byelaws...

I merely leave these points for your interest and consideration, and I don't want a bad-tempered argument starting. :)
 

ralphchadkirk

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TSR; these cases only concern the NRCOC. Byelaws will not be subject to them. The general idea from Parker v South Eastern Railway is that if the passenger is not aware there is text on the back of the ticket, then, arguably the NRCOC will not apply and the contract will be null and void (so the Company are within their rights to breach it, the same as the passenger). If, however, the customer is aware there is text on the back referred to conditions, or if he knew there was text on the back but did not read it then the customer will be bound by the conditions as long as the ticket was given in such a manner that allowed the customer to see the writing.

The bit in italics is the part I am most interested in, as most tickets are not delivered to the customer upside down. However, I don't know enough about this detail of contract law to make any claim on it.
 

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The sign relating to the Conditions of Carriage displayed on or in the area of the booking office window has been acceptable for years as a suitable and sufficiently prominent location.

In addition tickets themselves bear reference to the NCoC.

A person who decides to reject the NCoC is entitled to a full refund if they make this decision at the time of pourchase, which is one reason why the signs are there. IN addition becasue fo the particular nature of the Contract formed when buying ANY form of travel ticket, acceptance of the Conditions must be unconditional, and the dispaly of the referenmce to the NCoC is legally regarded as making the intending passenger aware of them. If they leave the station then it has been judged legally for many years that they have accepted and agreed to be bound by those NCoC.

In nearly 200 years every possible legal effort has been made by various people at various times to argue about the legality of the situation and all loopholes have been well closed.

Legislation relating to Consumer Law has not been enacted into travel tickets by any transportation means, except in the case of Airlines operated by EU Countries where the arrrangements for compensation and responsibility duirng delays have been mandated upon EU airlines. Non-EU airlines are NOT bound by these conditions even when operating between EU Countries.
 

michael769

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While Parker v South Eastern Railway [1877] 2 CPD 416L related to an exclusion clause the judgement was framed in terms of a generic contract cause and it is accepted (most notably by the superior courts of record) as the authority of the applicability of any type contract term in an unsigned contract.

Note the use of the term "condition" not "exclusion condition" in Mellish LJ's ruling:

I am of opinion, therefore, that the proper direction to leave to the jury in these cases is, that if the person receiving the ticket did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing, and knew or believed that the writing contained conditions, then he is bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing on the ticket, but did not know or believe that the writing contained conditions, nevertheless he would be bound, if the delivering of the ticket to him in such a manner that he could see there was writing upon it, was, in the opinion of the jury, reasonable notice that the writing contained conditions.

It established 2 important principles: that evidence that a party had actually read a contract term is not required to make it binding, but that the existence of contract terms must be notified to the customer.

Olley v Marlborough Court Hotel [1949] 1 KB 532 is significant in that said notification must take place prior to the contract being formed or it is void, unless there is a history of consistent prior dealings that means that the part should have become aware that the terms were normally in place.

What this means for the railways (in my opinion) is that new passengers must be made aware of the existence of the NCoC (such as by way of a prominent notice displayed at the point of purchase - I forget the authority but the principle that a prominent notice at point of sale or entrance is sufficient is well entrenched in common law), and must be able to access to the full text prior to completing any purchase. But that long term regular passengers may be bound even if this is not the case. A notice issued after the contract was completed (for example a sign at a platform or on the back of a non-refundable ticket) is not sufficient.

As Dave notes Spurling vs Bradshaw (1956) warns that unreasonable or onerous clauses must be notified much more prominently (the "red hand rule"). As we are in the realms of common law, given the lack of case law examining the NCoC, it is by no means clear what kind of bar would be applied by the courts when determining what was onerous or unreasonable.

EDIT: Unfortunately from the point of view of the consumer Common Law is much less "user friendly" than most consumer statutes and in practice that makes relying on this stuff a very different and more difficult and potentially expensive proposition from dealing with a shop that sold you a faulty TV. IMO the fact that transport is excluded from most consumer law is quite disgraceful.
 
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