Caldervale Line Future

Status
Not open for further replies.

ben2011

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
5
With the northern hub propsals put forwards, I was just wondering what developments we will see on the Caldervale Line in the next few years. Electrification? More London services?
Cheers:D
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
Electrification will be a challenge. Can anyone name a route of similar or longer distance with a higher percentage of its mileage in tunnels than that between Bradford and Manchester? In the most tunnel-heavy section (Bradford > Halifax) the in-tunnel mileage must be getting on for 50%.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
7,799
Electrification will be a challenge. Can anyone name a route of similar or longer distance with a higher percentage of its mileage in tunnels than that between Bradford and Manchester? In the most tunnel-heavy section (Bradford > Halifax) the in-tunnel mileage must be getting on for 50%.

Not only that but the services along it arn't simple. It isn't just a enclosed line like the harrogate line for example/

For example if it was wired we we would then have a situation where a york blackpool is only not under the wires for todmorden to preston.
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
Not only that but the services along it arn't simple. It isn't just a enclosed line like the harrogate line for example/

For example if it was wired we we would then have a situation where a york blackpool is only not under the wires for todmorden to preston.

It could be made simpler though. At present I think it's too complex, with each individual element of the service being only hourly. The York > Blackpool could run via Brighouse, thereby running a single diesel service over the two [future] non-electrified sections Mirfield > Sowerby Bridge and Tod > Preston. For the rest, 3 trains an hour Leeds > Manchester via Bradford, one Huddersfield > Bradford terminating diesel unit, and a Bradford > Leeds hourly EMU shuttle making up the 4 tph between Interchange and Leeds. Cuts off Bradford from Preston, but a good connection at Hebden could be arranged, and the benefits of an all-electric service (except the hourly Huddersfield) would be great IMHO.
 

Anvil1984

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,281
To be honest I'd wire the route via Brighouse before the route via Bradford just because it gives a quicker TPE diversion as currently theres no provision incase any thing goes belly up on the North TPE. Ok it would only permit 1 train an hour (based on present timetable) instead of 2tph to go EMU but I just think it is worth doing it that way for that reason

Also if you switch the Man Vic stopper to go via Bradford and the Blackpool to go via Brighouse then the Blackpool would have to pick up all of the local station calls making it even more cosier than it is now
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
2,339
You could easily add in a Rochdale stopper EMU or two to mop up the slow calls.

Considering the various places along the line, it really could have a very intensive service - I could see 5-6tph leaving Man Vic, including a Burnley.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,344
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
If the Caldervale (Calderdale?) gets wired then the short section through Brighouse (from the electrified Huddersfield line) becomes a no-brainer (for Bradford - Huddersfield, for Leeds - Dewsbury - Rochdale - Manchester, for diversions etc).

Given the frequency of Caldervale services (four an hour from Manchester to Rochdale, four an hour from Todmorden to Sowerby Bridge, four an hour from Halifax to Leeds - not all services stopping at all stations) it looks like a decent case for electrification - though that's "on paper" and not dealing with the pennine geography (which, as others have pointed out, will take some additional effort).

If nothing else happens then I expect that some of the displaced TPE 185s will move onto the Caldervale line (some Leeds - Manchester services are currently Pacer run, so a 185 would be a big upgrade) - there's scope for the unelectrified Caldervale to gain services to Scarborough/ Middlesbrough etc (to retain direct links to Manchester/Leeds) if the TPE wiring means that these places lose their existing "via Huddersfield" services.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
2,339
I think Caldervale is correct for the line, but Calderdale for the area/council???

Good idea re: Scarborough. They could maybe still get to Man Airport via Rochdale, better than Blackpool surely.
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
2,801
I think Caldervale is correct for the line, but Calderdale for the area/council???

I was born and brought-up in Halifax and the Calder Valley in the 50s and 60s.

"Caldervale" is a West-Yorkshire Metro name which does no justice to the steep, precipitous, millstone-grit Pennine crags and valleys through which the railway was formed.

It was, and always will be, the Calder Valley.

Google "Calder Valley" and "Calder Vale" and compare the results.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,344
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
Good idea re: Scarborough. They could maybe still get to Man Airport via Rochdale, better than Blackpool surely.

It'd allow a direct Manchester link to be retained, plus a 185 would suit both the Scarborough - Leeds and Leeds - Halifax - Manchester services

I was born and brought-up in Halifax and the Calder Valley in the 50s and 60s.

"Caldervale" is a West-Yorkshire Metro name which does no justice to the steep, precipitous, millstone-grit Pennine crags and valleys through which the railway was formed.

It was, and always will be, the Calder Valley.

Google "Calder Valley" and "Calder Vale" and compare the results.

Am always happy to bow to local knowledge :)
 

GNERman

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2008
Messages
1,582
Location
North Yorkshire
I think that the future of services on this line depend on two current projects; the Northern Hub and East Leeds Parkway Station, which would see some current Caldervale services terminating there.

As for more London trains, GC have applied for a 4th Bradford path, operating from Mirfield/Wakefield to London via Bradford, Leeds and Garforth, and it is the company's eventual aim to run a two-hourly clockwork timetable, so one can only wait and hope.
 

ben2011

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
5
As for more London trains, GC have applied for a 4th Bradford path, operating from Mirfield/Wakefield to London via Bradford, Leeds and Garforth, and it is the company's eventual aim to run a two-hourly clockwork timetable, so one can only wait and hope.

Really? Is the service really doing that well? Every time I've been on it its been quite empty.

Thinking about it now, it seems unlikely the Government would approve the electrification of a second Leeds to Manchester route when other areas in need of investment too, one place being the Harrogate Line
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,774
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
If nothing else happens then I expect that some of the displaced TPE 185s will move onto the Caldervale line (some Leeds - Manchester services are currently Pacer run, so a 185 would be a big upgrade) - there's scope for the unelectrified Caldervale to gain services to Scarborough/ Middlesbrough etc (to retain direct links to Manchester/Leeds) if the TPE wiring means that these places lose their existing "via Huddersfield" services.


In the June 2012 issue of Modern Railways, on page 65, there is a paragraph in the section headed "Cascades", that states when the Class 350 units are in service, the displaced Class 185 units will be used not only to strengthen the existing Class 185 operated service patterns, but there is mention made of the newly-proposed Liverpool to Newcastle service which will require a certain number of these units to meet the operational requirements of that particular route.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,847
In the June 2012 issue of Modern Railways, on page 65, there is a paragraph in the section headed "Cascades", that states when the Class 350 units are in service, the displaced Class 185 units will be used not only to strengthen the existing Class 185 operated service patterns, but there is mention made of the newly-proposed Liverpool to Newcastle service which will require a certain number of these units to meet the operational requirements of that particular route.

Hasn't the fifth TPE North Core service been selected as Liverpool to York?

In any case I think the suggestion of the Caldervale line receiving 185s is for post TP North electrification.
 

Aictos

On Moderation
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
9,431
Just a quick query but as a number of routes are being wired up, is it viable for the following?

Blackpool North to Preston is going to be wired up so why not also do Blackpool South to Colne using a 2 or 3 car EMU to run stopping services which would deliver the investment these services need.

Leeds to York is going to be wired up so why not eventually ensure it's possible to wire up between Leeds and Blackburn ensuring EMU operation between York and Blackpool North/South.

If done right, Harrogate and Bradford Interchange could be added to the existing Metro services from Leeds with the addition of a Harrogate Circle service between Leeds and York.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,344
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
GC have applied for a 4th Bradford path, operating from Mirfield/Wakefield to London via Bradford, Leeds and Garforth, and it is the company's eventual aim to run a two-hourly clockwork timetable, so one can only wait and hope.

I think that this says more about the profitability of GC tapping into the Leeds ORCATS "pot" than it does about the profitability of GC's existing Mirfield/ Brighouse route. I'm sure that if the Mirfield/Brighouse route was doing *that* well they could find a path through there a lot easier than they could through central Leeds...

In the June 2012 issue of Modern Railways, on page 65, there is a paragraph in the section headed "Cascades", that states when the Class 350 units are in service, the displaced Class 185 units will be used not only to strengthen the existing Class 185 operated service patterns, but there is mention made of the newly-proposed Liverpool to Newcastle service which will require a certain number of these units to meet the operational requirements of that particular route.

I think the suggestion of the Caldervale line receiving 185s is for post TP North electrification.

Yup - I was talking about the Huddersfield electrification which should release a lot more 185s than the Lancashire Triangle scheme will. The Lancashire scheme will displace 185s for the fifth Huddersfield service, but the Huddersfield scheme will free those units up plus a couple of dozen others (potentially, depending on east coast extensions etc)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,774
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Hasn't the fifth TPE North Core service been selected as Liverpool to York?

I report only as I read. However, there was talk of a Liverpool to Newcastle service in the discussion process leading to the current position.

Can I ask for clarification from forum members for this matter of Newcastle or York being the terminal destination for this service ?
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,465
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Hasn't the fifth TPE North Core service been selected as Liverpool to York?

In any case I think the suggestion of the Caldervale line receiving 185s is for post TP North electrification.

The 5th service will be Newcastle to Liverpool via Victoria and the Chat Moss, with the current service via the CLC being cut short to York and the previous Newcastle path likely being extended to Scarbrough, or trading places with the Hull service although the latter is not as likely.

And yes, Calder Valley 185 is post electrification in any of the plans I have come up with (or read) and would be as a result of all but about 17 units (under the current timetable) becoming available for use by other services based round the current depot locations, hence keeping them around Manchester, York and Cleethorpes.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,847
The 5th service will be Newcastle to Liverpool via Victoria and the Chat Moss, with the current service via the CLC being cut short to York and the previous Newcastle path likely being extended to Scarbrough, or trading places with the Hull service although the latter is not as likely.

Ah I see. In a round about kind of a way then! Thanks for the explanation!
 

VTPreston_Tez

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2012
Messages
1,159
Location
Preston
So with Blackpool to York presumably going to have more local stops, will we be seeing a fast service that can best 2 hours or is this just a dream that's never going to happen?..and where would it call?
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,465
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Yep, it will be to improve journey times between Newcastle / York and Liverpool, Newcastle will loose a direct airport link though, although it will be a 5min connection at Huddersfeild.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,774
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Newcastle will lose a direct airport link though, although it will be a 5min connection at Huddersfeild.

I have no wish whatsoever to reopen the "can of worms" that is the loss of the direct Manchester Airport to Newcastle service, as this has had many postings in the past regarding the rail operational advantages this decision has. However, with the matter of future airline passenger flights, from 2014 onwards, taking passengers from Newcastle to Orlando, etc, from the Newcastle area, will the package holiday companies be seeking to keep the rail option open by arranging Middlesbrough to be the direct service rail hub for "North-East" Manchester Airport-bound travellers?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,847
I have no wish whatsoever to reopen the "can of worms" that is the loss of the direct Manchester Airport to Newcastle service, as this has had many postings in the past regarding the rail operational advantages this decision has. However, with the matter of future airline passenger flights, from 2014 onwards, taking passengers from Newcastle to Orlando, etc, from the Newcastle area, will the package holiday companies be seeking to keep the rail option open by arranging Middlesbrough to be the direct service rail hub for "North-East" Manchester Airport-bound travellers?

Possible. Worth mentioning that post TPE North electrification it has also been suggested that if Middlesborough isn't wired then the CrossCountry Newcastle terminators could be swapped with TPE's Middlesborough services. This would restore Newcastle's link to Manchester Airport.

 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,344
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
I have no wish whatsoever to reopen the "can of worms" that is the loss of the direct Manchester Airport to Newcastle service, as this has had many postings in the past regarding the rail operational advantages this decision has. However, with the matter of future airline passenger flights, from 2014 onwards, taking passengers from Newcastle to Orlando, etc, from the Newcastle area, will the package holiday companies be seeking to keep the rail option open by arranging Middlesbrough to be the direct service rail hub for "North-East" Manchester Airport-bound travellers?

It's not really up to the package holiday operators though. And changing to a Middlesbrough TPE service to the Airport is no different to whether the Airport train came from Scarborough/Hull - it's one simple change at Huddersfield (etc).

Until TPE electrification happens (at which point Middlesbrough/ Scarborough may lose their current services) there will continue to be trains from Newcastle/ Middlesbrough/Scarborough/Hull to the TPE "core" (Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester) and some trains from the TPE "core" will continue to Manchester Airport/ Liverpool. I really don't think that passenger numbers on any of the longer distance flows are that significant that any of the "coast to coast" links are set in stone.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,774
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
It's not really up to the package holiday operators though. And changing to a Middlesbrough TPE service to the Airport is no different to whether the Airport train came from Scarborough/Hull - it's one simple change at Huddersfield (etc).

Perhaps you have misconstrued the point that I was endeavouring to make with the advent of the 2014 timetable that has been bandied about on certain threads of late. When I referred to the "package-holiday operators", which you state above as "not being up to them", it was in respect of the fact if they saw a direct Middlesbrough rail service to Manchester Airport in lieu of a direct Newcastle rail service to Manchester Airport, then they may well consider this option.

It is all well and good to say that a simple change at Huddersfield would be required, but that is most certainly not from the view of some of the package holiday operators with whom I discussed this matter when it was previously being discussed on the forum. The consensus of the operators views was that after a long flight back home from Orlando, etc, they want their customers to transfer from plane to train at Manchester Airport for a single direct fast train journey with guaranteed seat reservations to the North-East, without the need to transfer heavy holiday luggage en route home from train to train, at an intermediate station.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,846
Just how many of these package holiday passengers are there? What has to be done is what is best for the majority of the ridership, without also causing operational headaches et al on the technical side. The whole TPE North timetable recast can't be moulded around a few North East holiday package companies...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,774
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Just how many of these package holiday passengers are there? What has to be done is what is best for the majority of the ridership, without also causing operational headaches et al on the technical side. The whole TPE North timetable recast can't be moulded around a few North East holiday package companies...

The only point that I was at pains to point out was that these holiday companies do use an already existing service that is provided by First TPE, as part of the travelling requirements (both by plane and train) of their package-holiday customers.

It is not a case of the tail wagging the dog, as your comment above would seem to suggest.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,846
So with Blackpool to York presumably going to have more local stops, will we be seeing a fast service that can best 2 hours or is this just a dream that's never going to happen?..and where would it call?

I don't know of anywhere that is set in stone that it will have more stops, just hearsay on here. I don't really see how (or why) you could do Blackpool-York in two hours anyway...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top