Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[4-SUB 4732]

Out of interest, are there any spare old Mk2 or Mk3 restaurant/buffet coaches around that CS could hire if lounges are starting to cause problems similar to the seats?

Obviously not the same as the sleeper lounges, but as with the replacement seats it would be passable for the Fort William at least.

Pretty sure Riviera could throw out some more tat if needed. Think I've been on one before.

Does anybody know if Mark 5 coaches are working yet in revenue service?

 

[TimboM]

Given that the Mark 5s need the ETS beefed up to handle increased load, I'm surprised they're using 1500V DC rather than 3-phase AC. I'm sure there's an excellent reason, but I've no clue what it is.

It's 1,500V (A/C as clarified) as that's what the 92s were all built with for the ETS-hungry Nightstar stock. They were modified to 900V to work the old Sleeper stock and in effect will be "unmodified" back to their original 1,500V for the Mk5s.

I suspect one of the strengths of the Serco/GB bid was the use of the 92s and this ETS capability which meant new stock with significant extra power demands (showers etc.) could be considered vs other bids which I believe proposed overhauling the old stock and using traction with standard 850-900V around the ETH 100 index mark (compared to 180 from a 92).

i.e. the beefed-up ETS on the 92 allowed the increased load on the new stock, rather than the new stock required the 92's ETS to be beefed up.

 

[TimboM]

Does anybody know if Mark 5 coaches are working yet in revenue service?

No - launch date on the Lowlander set for 28th October. Highlander to follow "early" (ish) in 2019.
I'm sure you'll hear about it on here when they are in service...!

 

[BRX]

Again?

It was out-of-use due to flat batteries or something like that when I returned from Fort William in June. It was accessible to staff to use as a common room as long as they didn't mind sitting in the dark but they couldn't offer food, drink or seats.

It's a shame they gave us only about 30 minutes' notice before boarding, although perhaps they thought they'd be able to fix it.

In the morning it's not such a big disaster (though I had spent much of the sleepless night looking forward to a coffee somewhere round about Crianlarich) but it's a bit more of a problem in the evening...a long journey to make on a hungry stomach. Did you manage to obtain yourself any dinner in that 30 minutes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dont think there are any spares readily available that wouldn't require work done to them such as having the call buttons and fire alarm panels fitted to them.

I don't think the FW coach would need that, as it's a day train to and from Edinburgh and is removed for the overnight stretch. I would be very surprised if that Riviera Trains one had it.

 

[Scotrail84]

I don't think the FW coach would need that, as it's a day train to and from Edinburgh and is removed for the overnight stretch. I would be very surprised if that Riviera Trains one had it.

The gives even less flexibility for swapping coaches in and out though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The gives even less flexibility for swapping coaches in and our though.

It does, but the FW is an odd case, and it isn't way out of the realms of common sense that that pair of coaches just stays up there and is maintained locally.

 

[Scotrail84]

It does, but the FW is an odd case, and it isn't way out of the realms of common sense that that pair of coaches just stays up there and is maintained locally.

Its imperative that the coaches are under power almost constantly these days when not in use as the MA's and batteries are in that bad shape they don't restart ofter a long period without power and the batteries only give a few hours of power maximum. Even something as simple as an engine run round taking too long can result in an MA on the MK2's failing to restart and thats it gubbed until it gets attention on depot. The seats are the usual suspects with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its imperative that the coaches are under power almost constantly these days when not in use as the MA's and batteries are in that bad shape they don't restart ofter a long period without power and the batteries only give a few hours of power maximum. Even somethings a simple as an engine run round taking too long can result in an MA on the MK2's failing to restart and thats it dubbed until it gets attention on depot. The seats are the usual suspects with this.

Are there any spare Mk3s that could be used for the FW pair of coaches to avoid these issues? I guess you'd need an RFM, an FO and a DVT (the latter just being used for the van function)? Or have Chiltern and GA got them all?

 

[Scotrail84]

Are there any spare Mk3s that could be used for the FW pair of coaches to avoid these issues? I guess you'd need an RFM, an FO and a DVT?

No there nothing, anyway drivers/guards are not trained on DVTs and that would extend the trains length and weight. I don't know what an RFM is and I'm assuming FO is first open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No there nothing, anyway drivers/guards are not trained on DVTs and that would extend the trains length and weight. I don't know what an RFM is and I'm assuming FO is first open.

Sorry, RFM is Restaurant First Modular. FO is First Open, yes.

On the train to Euston the length of a Mk3 would be an issue, but surely not on the short train to FW? Staff training is a good point, though.

 

[Scotrail84]

Sorry, RFM is Restaurant First Modular. FO is First Open, yes.

On the train to Euston the length of a Mk3 would be an issue, but surely not on the short train to FW? Staff training is a good point, though.

Because it operates under RETB the train length and weight must be put on the drivers slip. A DVT will never happen though I did say the new trains should have be built with DBSO's with gangway connections enabling the operate to Euston act and split/attach without requiring engine run rounds.

 

[TimboM]

Because it operates under RETB the train length and weight must be put on the drivers slip. A DVT will never happen though I did say the new trains should have be built with DBSO's with gangway connections enabling the operate to Euston act and split/attach without requiring engine run rounds.

Presumably this would've had to be the brake/seats coach, though, which is already a squeeze fitting in seats, guards accommodation and luggage area? A DBSO cab would've caused a major headache trying to fit in.

 

[Scotrail84]

Presumably this would've had to be the brake/seats coach, though, which is already a squeeze fitting in seats, guards accommodation and luggage area? A DBSO cab would've caused a major headache trying to fit in.

Yes it would be the seated carriage, its doable. The current DBSO's on the network could have been used as a model.

 

[Scotrail84]

So does that mean the berthed passengers will not have got any hot drinks?

The pantry in the SLEPs all have boilers and microwaves powered by the locos ETH, only in the event of a total train ETH failure is when these would not work.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

73970 had to shut down and restart today at Bridge of Orchy - may have been a problem with the train rather than the loco itself. 1Y11 was running 43 late anyway due to signaling issues at Edinburgh but that took it to 69 late.

Lounge car (6703) also knackered on today’s FTW northbound, but free juice being given to seated sleepers who ask. Well done CS staff.

 

[route101]

TBH having the 2+2 seated coach on the FW is probably no terrible idea, the best "kip" I've had on the Caley in the seats has been leaning forward onto a table.

But arent you facing someone ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But arent you facing someone ?

It's usually pretty quiet on the FW leg. It can never be completely full from London because the seated passengers also have to share the Aberdeen seated coach, while because it leaves Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dalmuir at fairly antisocial times it's not super-popular for day trippers (the 0821 from Queen St is better timed, really).

The 4am coach-swap also acts as a significant dissuader to anyone who isn't an enthusiast / otherwise interested in watching the shunt.

 

[route101]

It's usually pretty quiet on the FW leg. It can never be completely full from London because the seated passengers also have to share the Aberdeen seated coach, while because it leaves Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dalmuir at fairly antisocial times it's not super-popular for day trippers (the 0821 from Queen St is better timed, really).

The 4am coach-swap also acts as a significant dissuader to anyone who isn't an enthusiast / otherwise interested in watching the shunt.

Done it in the other direction from FW to Glasgow , was regular seated coach . In a single airline seat .

 

[vlad]

In the morning it's not such a big disaster (though I had spent much of the sleepless night looking forward to a coffee somewhere round about Crianlarich) but it's a bit more of a problem in the evening...a long journey to make on a hungry stomach. Did you manage to obtain yourself any dinner in that 30 minutes?

When I said 30 minutes before boarding then that still allowed another 30 minutes till the train left.

However, even though I had an hour I didn't fancy looking for somewhere to eat as I don't know Fort William very well and so didn't know anywhere that would feed me in that time. I went to Morrisons next door and bought sandwiches to eat in the compartment. I'd have preferred something more substantial....

 

[philjo]

92014 on the northbound Highland tonight though not left Euston yet. I'm in the FW portion.

 

[Mag_seven]

92014 on the northbound Highland tonight though not left Euston yet. I'm in the FW portion.

92014 was a late substitute for 92023 which apparently had an issue.

 

[yorkie]

Is it true that seated passengers have to "check in" to the "day coach" before they can board the Fort William service, when travelling to local stations within Scotland?

 

[Leisurefirst]

Is it true that seated passengers have to "check in" to the "day coach" before they can board the Fort William service, when travelling to local stations within Scotland?

No checking when we boarded at Waverley in June, no reservations honoured, just first come first served. Got packed by Glasgow and standing before FW. Squashed into sharing four seater tables not want you want during 12 and a half hour journey!

 

[181]

No checking when we boarded at Waverley in June, no reservations honoured, just first come first served. Got packed by Glasgow and standing before FW. Squashed into sharing four seater tables not want you want during 12 and a half hour journey!

I think you were unlucky. I've used the seated coach about a dozen times over the years (including both journeys from England and local journeys on the West Highland), and I don't remember it ever being much more than half full. On my most recent trip (London to Fort William on a Friday night/Saturday morning in July this year) there were 14 people changing carriages at Waverley, which fitted quite well into a coach with 4 bays of seating, i.e. 16 pairs of seats. Any passengers starting their journeys at Waverley would probably not have turned up until nearer departure time; I was dozing by then and didn't notice if there were any. Some people got in and out along the way, but it was never unpleasantly full.

The nearest thing to a 'check-in' was the guard releasing the doors and saying something along the lines of 'look for the seat reservation with your name on it' -- and indeed there were reservation labels with everyone's names handwritten on them, although the seat number bore no relationship to what was on my ticket, as that assumed a normal 'seated sleeper' coach rather than the 'half brake' actually in use.

Although this coach is theoretically reservation-only, I've never seen any sign of this being enforced for people making local journeys within Scotland (which is just as well given that I gather that it can be difficult to get such reservations); it's just like boarding any other train on which some seats may be reserved.

This time there was a check-in on the platform at Euston -- all passengers, seated or berth, had to queue up at one of two temporary desks on the platform (one for the Inverness half of the train and one for the rest, I think) to be directed to the appropriate coach.

 

[BRX]

When I travelled eus-ftw earlier this week, there were no labels on any seats in the aberdeen coach. This resulted in a certain amount of confusion because some of the seat numbering is a bit unclear. There were people who'd agreed to move from their allocated seats so others could sit together, and this resulted in some people sitting in seats which weren't theirs but no information as to whether they were reserved, say from Crewe onwards. The coach was quite full, with some people squashed together somewhat with strangers, and yet there were a couple of two-seat pairs and single seats empty. I had my eye on one of those pairs (as an alternative to my allotted seat facing someone else) and after they weren't taken at watford junction I decided to take a gamble and move to them, hoping no one would claim them at crewe or preston. I was lucky and no one did, although it doesn't aid attempts to get any sleep, knowing that you might have to vacate. And if anyone had boarded, they'd have had to go through the awkward process of prodding me and asking me to get out.

Why don't they put labels on the seats? It would avoid a lot of these problems and make everyone's journey a bit more relaxing and less prone to conflict.

At edinburgh there were no labels in the fort william coach either - but the 2+2 seating meant that the layout bore no resemblance to the plan I'd chosen my seat on when booking anyway. There were more people doing the transfer than I'd expected, and each of the table bays had at least two people in it.

That layout I didn't find very conducive to getting any more sleep. And it didn't have the dimmed lighting of the 'proper' seated coaches.

 

[BRX]

Is it true that seated passengers have to "check in" to the "day coach" before they can board the Fort William service, when travelling to local stations within Scotland?

Everything is pretty (usually enjoyably) informal on that service, in the seated coach between edinburgh and fort william. I can't even remember any ticket checks the last few times I've done it. The 'checking in' at intermediate stations for local-service passengers generally involves the guard pointing at the appropriate door whilst slightly confused rucksack-laden travellers leg it down one of the WHL island platforms.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

When I traveled from Queen Street to FTW earlier this week, the guard hopped off and welcomed me and the one other person boarding. This may have been to ensure that we boarded at the correct door (the first door on the train, next to the loco and nearly off the platform ). He asked where we were getting off but didn't check tickets or get involved with seating. The train manager later told me about the Lounge car being out of use but again didn't ask about seating.

 

[Hadders]

I travelled on the seated sleeper from Fort William to Glasgow back in June.

At FTW you aren’t allowed onto the platform until around 15 mins before departure. A member of staff checks your ticket and directs you to the correct coach as you enter the platform. If you are connecting from the Mallaig train then you’d bypass the ticket check.

When I did my journey the seated coach was almost fully booked, never seen it so full (and I’ve done the journey several times before).

 

[BRX]

When I traveled from Queen Street to FTW earlier this week, the guard hopped off and welcomed me and the one other person boarding. This may have been to ensure that we boarded at the correct door (the first door on the train, next to the loco and nearly off the platform .

The seated coach is right at the back of the train in that direction though.