Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Highland37]

They picked the locomotives...

Very true. I bought a car once which turned out to be a bad choice and I was very annoyed with myself.

But I was also annoyed that the garage kept promising a solution and whilst the replacement car they gave me was adequate, it was also annoying as it wasn't what they had promised.

 

[CosherB]

Wow. Serco must be getting annoyed with the traction situation.

Why? The 66/73 combo is an interim measure and works fine. What's not to like?

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

hi all.
what are the chances of the 73 and 66 working edinburgh to aberdeen tonight then? greatly appreciated if anyone knows an answer.
many thanks
dean

 

[marks87]

Why? The 66/73 combo is an interim measure and works fine. What's not to like?

Well, the 73 acting as little more than a glorified generator van isn't ideal.

Did Serco really pick the locomotives? Or was it more a case of GBRf's bid to provide the traction was based on using 73/9s?

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

...its only because i will quickly book on from london this evening! thanks.
dean

 

[CosherB]

Well, the 73 acting as little more than a glorified generator van isn't ideal.

Did Serco really pick the locomotives? Or was it more a case of GBRf's bid to provide the traction was based on using 73/9s?

http://www.gbrailfreight.com/media-centre/news-releases/

I'd say the latter - Serco decided to go with GBRf rather than DBC or DRS presumably on the basis of available and proposed traction, and cost.

 

[gsnedders]

Who's picking up the bill for all this? GBRf? I presume the fuel cost of using the 66 for traction is higher than the 73/9, not to mention the fact that the 73/9 is still there consuming fuel as well!

 

[43096]

Wow. Serco must be getting annoyed with the traction situation.

Why would Serco be bothered? As long as the trains run on time and have train supply it is irrelevant to them.

GBRf will be more bothered as they have the extra costs of the current setup - but you'd hope they'd be passing the extra costs of the 73 situation back to MTU (via Wabtec).

 

[marks87]

Who's picking up the bill for all this? GBRf? I presume the fuel cost of using the 66 for traction is higher than the 73/9, not to mention the fact that the 73/9 is still there consuming fuel as well!

Presumably the cost of the current setup is less than it would cost to sublease 4 (2 for Inverness) 67s from DB Cargo (assuming DBC have any to spare, natch).

 

[fgwrich]

Who's picking up the bill for all this? GBRf? I presume the fuel cost of using the 66 for traction is higher than the 73/9, not to mention the fact that the 73/9 is still there consuming fuel as well!

Why would Serco be bothered? As long as the trains run on time and have train supply it is irrelevant to them.

GBRf will be more bothered as they have the extra costs of the current setup - but you'd hope they'd be passing the extra costs of the 73 situation back to MTU (via Wabtec).

I'm not sure how much of it is already known, but it's a complicated merry-go-round at the moment with Serco actually having little external coasts themselves. Wabtec are picking up the tab for the issues with the 73/9s, Network Rail are picking up the tab for the 92s electrical issues, Serco are paying Riviera for the hire of the 2x Mk2s in use on the Fort Bill while Serco fixes their own.

You have to remember that while Serco chose GBRF as Traction Provider, a lot of the issues with the locos could hardly be predicted at the time and is a little unfair to blame either. The 73/9s should be cracking little locos, it's unfortunate that their introduction to passenger services is being beset by a design and subsequent mechanical fault. Equally, the 92s are powerful horses that will pull anything and are perfectly suited to the needs of the sleeper - however, it's the combination of their complicated electronics meeting issues with NRs WCML OHLE that is causing their problem.

Incidentally, the Caledonian Sleeper 92s will be receiving additional Modifications when the Mk3s come on stream including new couplers and lights.

 

[43096]

I'm not sure how much of it is already known, but it's a complicated merry-go-round at the moment with Serco actually having little external coasts themselves. Wabtec are picking up the tab for the issues with the 73/9s, Network Rail are picking up the tab for the 92s electrical issues, Serco are paying Riviera for the hire of the 2x Mk2s in use on the Fort Bill while Serco fixes their own.

You have to remember that while Serco chose GBRF as Traction Provider, a lot of the issues with the locos could hardly be predicted at the time and is a little unfair to blame either. The 73/9s should be cracking little locos, it's unfortunate that their introduction to passenger services is being beset by a design and subsequent mechanical fault. Equally, the 92s are powerful horses that will pull anything and are perfectly suited to the needs of the sleeper - however, it's the combination of their complicated electronics meeting issues with NRs WCML OHLE that is causing their problem.

Incidentally, the Caledonian Sleeper 92s will be receiving additional Modifications when the Mk3s come on stream including new couplers and lights.

Thanks for that update.

With regard to the 73s, I assume Wabtec are passing the costs back to MTU, as the combined engine/alternator set was supplied by MTU as a package.

 

[Requeststop]

During my recent visit back to the UK I took the CS service twice: To both Fort William and Inverness and back to London. I also took the Night Riviera to Truro and Paddington and back. First Class in all cases. Both services have pusses and minuses in my opinion. First the CS service. Friendly staff both at check-in and in the restaurant car. Food very good, service friendly and warm. Bed comfortable, though duvet a bit thin. Journey out of London very good and smooth. In both cases, though to both Fort William and to Inverness, jolted awake in Edinburgh, and the ride to both destinations disturbed by a sort of constant whining sound, on and off similar to a mix of an air-raid siren and a ghostly haunting song. When we pulled into a stop the sound stopped and also when we pulled out of stops. Had me wondering if the sound was due to the breaking system. Kept me awake for the remainder of both journeys. Breakfast to Fort William was very good. Full Breakfast recommended. Toilets are VERY old. The berths in need of a good up-grade. The berth has points for re-charging phones and other equipment - a bonus. The Fort William service was on time. the Inverness service late. A bit sorry to see the Kyle service at 08:55 start to pull out and then stop at the platform as we arrived, but then start again to leave a few passengers stranded for a couple of hours. Return journeys to London there was the same sounds keeping me awake, but exhaustion sent me off to sleep. The second ride back to London from Inverness was early. I took a few snaps of the trains at both ends of each ride, and will post on my site later and let you know.

The Night Riviera rides were much smoother, the beds more comfortable, the duvets more thicker and comfortable and warming. No power points for mobiles and other equipment - a down side. No noise from the carriages in fact I slept from Plymouth all the way to Paddington. The return to Truro again I was asleep by Reading until woken up. at Par. Again a very decent welcome from a charming young man, the same on the return journey back to Truro, and I was remembered. The breakfast simple and decent and I wasn't woken up too early in London where I didn't take the breakfast. In fact 6:45 for a 7:00 get off the train was good. Toilets are more modern than CS.

Glad I had the chance to use the sleepers on all three services. Pity I couldn't do the Aberdeen run. Maybe next time I'm back in the UK.

Now if someone can explain the ghostly sirens...........

 

[47271]

I can't quite place the noise. Did you only get it north of Edinburgh, am I understanding you correctly? If so, could it just have been the sound of the diesel locomotive close to your coach?

Otherwise, the only significant noises are those of the aircon and the awful wheezing and groaning you get off the corridor connections if you find yourself in an end compartment. Both are less intrusive under diesel power because you don't get the aircon off-on caused by electric neutral sections, and speeds are generally lower with the diesels.

 

[IKB]

During my recent visit back to the UK I took the CS service twice: To both Fort William and Inverness and back to London. I also took the Night Riviera to Truro and Paddington and back. First Class in all cases. Both services have pusses and minuses in my opinion. First the CS service. Friendly staff both at check-in and in the restaurant car. Food very good, service friendly and warm. Bed comfortable, though duvet a bit thin. Journey out of London very good and smooth. In both cases, though to both Fort William and to Inverness, jolted awake in Edinburgh, and the ride to both destinations disturbed by a sort of constant whining sound, on and off similar to a mix of an air-raid siren and a ghostly haunting song. When we pulled into a stop the sound stopped and also when we pulled out of stops. Had me wondering if the sound was due to the breaking system. Kept me awake for the remainder of both journeys. Breakfast to Fort William was very good. Full Breakfast recommended. Toilets are VERY old. The berths in need of a good up-grade. The berth has points for re-charging phones and other equipment - a bonus. The Fort William service was on time. the Inverness service late. A bit sorry to see the Kyle service at 08:55 start to pull out and then stop at the platform as we arrived, but then start again to leave a few passengers stranded for a couple of hours. Return journeys to London there was the same sounds keeping me awake, but exhaustion sent me off to sleep. The second ride back to London from Inverness was early. I took a few snaps of the trains at both ends of each ride, and will post on my site later and let you know.

The Night Riviera rides were much smoother, the beds more comfortable, the duvets more thicker and comfortable and warming. No power points for mobiles and other equipment - a down side. No noise from the carriages in fact I slept from Plymouth all the way to Paddington. The return to Truro again I was asleep by Reading until woken up. at Par. Again a very decent welcome from a charming young man, the same on the return journey back to Truro, and I was remembered. The breakfast simple and decent and I wasn't woken up too early in London where I didn't take the breakfast. In fact 6:45 for a 7:00 get off the train was good. Toilets are more modern than CS.

Glad I had the chance to use the sleepers on all three services. Pity I couldn't do the Aberdeen run. Maybe next time I'm back in the UK.

Now if someone can explain the ghostly sirens...........

Interesting. I have similar experiences. Went on the CS earlier this year. I deliberately picked a berth in the middle of the coach away from the bogies...but I recognise the sound you are describing. I wasn't sure if it was an underfloor aircon unit or similar. Its like a constant whinning/moaning sound and it kept me awake the entire night. It's not just the sound of pressurised air...it like the sound you get from from a fridge freezer under the floor. Hard to describe. It went off briefly on occasions, perhaps when the train was coasting through neutral sections. A top tip is take some gaffer tape with you to block up the air vent, as you can't turn the air-con off, only adjust the temperature. The CS from Inverness I travelled on was very busy, so couldn't access the lounge car until late on, which was disappointing.

My journey on the Night Riviera was better. It seemed slightly more relaxed, perhaps because the train is shorter and less people trying to cram into the bar. And no noise issues either.

 

[fgwrich]

Thanks for that update.

With regard to the 73s, I assume Wabtec are passing the costs back to MTU, as the combined engine/alternator set was supplied by MTU as a package.

No problem. I'm not sure if Wabtec are passing the costs on, but it will be likely to be hurting either company at the moment - Wabtec as the supplier to GBRf and MTU for the Engine & Alternator package.

Having had the chance to take a look at a 73/9, they are impressive pieces of kit though. And an advantage to their re-engineering, and to MTUs, is the commonality with parts shared between it and the repowered MTU HST Power Cars.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

During my recent visit back to the UK I took the CS service twice: To both Fort William and Inverness and back to London. I also took the Night Riviera to Truro and Paddington and back. First Class in all cases. Both services have pusses and minuses in my opinion. First the CS service. Friendly staff both at check-in and in the restaurant car. Food very good, service friendly and warm. Bed comfortable, though duvet a bit thin. Journey out of London very good and smooth. In both cases, though to both Fort William and to Inverness, jolted awake in Edinburgh, and the ride to both destinations disturbed by a sort of constant whining sound, on and off similar to a mix of an air-raid siren and a ghostly haunting song. When we pulled into a stop the sound stopped and also when we pulled out of stops. Had me wondering if the sound was due to the breaking system. Kept me awake for the remainder of both journeys. Breakfast to Fort William was very good. Full Breakfast recommended. Toilets are VERY old. The berths in need of a good up-grade. The berth has points for re-charging phones and other equipment - a bonus. The Fort William service was on time. the Inverness service late. A bit sorry to see the Kyle service at 08:55 start to pull out and then stop at the platform as we arrived, but then start again to leave a few passengers stranded for a couple of hours. Return journeys to London there was the same sounds keeping me awake, but exhaustion sent me off to sleep. The second ride back to London from Inverness was early. I took a few snaps of the trains at both ends of each ride, and will post on my site later and let you know.

The Night Riviera rides were much smoother, the beds more comfortable, the duvets more thicker and comfortable and warming. No power points for mobiles and other equipment - a down side. No noise from the carriages in fact I slept from Plymouth all the way to Paddington. The return to Truro again I was asleep by Reading until woken up. at Par. Again a very decent welcome from a charming young man, the same on the return journey back to Truro, and I was remembered. The breakfast simple and decent and I wasn't woken up too early in London where I didn't take the breakfast. In fact 6:45 for a 7:00 get off the train was good. Toilets are more modern than CS.

Glad I had the chance to use the sleepers on all three services. Pity I couldn't do the Aberdeen run. Maybe next time I'm back in the UK.

Now if someone can explain the ghostly sirens...........

I think I need to take a look at one of my Mk3 guides, but I've a feeling that it might have been a noisy AC Module that may have been making that sound. Some of them can be a little bit more noticeable on Mk3s, not least to some on a sleeper where the coach is divided up into cabins - a normal saloon you might just hear it, in a cabin your more likely to hear it if your above it.

Cant say I recall hearing much noise in my cabin on the NR (other than a wheelflat and that was from a 1/4 of the way in the coach), a little bit of an AC Hum on the Caley Sleeper but not enough to keep me awake.

 

[43096]

Having had the chance to take a look at a 73/9, they are impressive pieces of kit though.

Agreed. With the re-engineering they've got to what the SR originally wanted from the design: a loco with similar output in electric and diesel modes.

The less said about the RVEL/Loram effort the better, though!

 

[Mordac]

Agreed. With the re-engineering they've got to what the SR originally wanted from the design: a loco with similar output in electric and diesel modes.

The less said about the RVEL/Loram effort the better, though!

I thought they'd removed all the DC electric gubbins from them as part of the rebuild?

 

[43096]

I thought they'd removed all the DC electric gubbins from them as part of the rebuild?

No. They retain electric capability, like 73961-965.

 

[najaB]

I thought they'd removed all the DC electric gubbins from them as part of the rebuild?

According to this article, they still run from the juice:

So what will the rebuilt locomotives do?

“They will move across the UK,” Tiller tells RAIL. “They will probably be used on the New Measurement Train, and they will run in Scotland.” Also, while on the move, they will be able to switch from diesel to electric and vice-versa.

though you're right that a lot of the DC gubbins have been replaced by AC gubbins:

There are still two cubicles for electrics, although all the auxiliary systems are now AC motor-driven. This cuts down on maintenance requirements, says Tiller. There is a chopper cubicle for the controls for the motor, and Tiller explains that this should give an improved motor performance.

 

[Requeststop]

Interesting. I have similar experiences. Went on the CS earlier this year. I deliberately picked a berth in the middle of the coach away from the bogies...but I recognise the sound you are describing. I wasn't sure if it was an underfloor aircon unit or similar. Its like a constant whinning/moaning sound and it kept me awake the entire night. It's not just the sound of pressurised air...it like the sound you get from from a fridge freezer under the floor. Hard to describe. It went off briefly on occasions, perhaps when the train was coasting through neutral sections. A top tip is take some gaffer tape with you to block up the air vent, as you can't turn the air-con off, only adjust the temperature. The CS from Inverness I travelled on was very busy, so couldn't access the lounge car until late on, which was disappointing.

My journey on the Night Riviera was better. It seemed slightly more relaxed, perhaps because the train is shorter and less people trying to cram into the bar. And no noise issues either.

Yes exactly, and I too was in the middle of the coach. This sound was only north of Edinburgh. My diagnosis was that it was something to do with breaking or application of brakes, such as slowing the train as it travelled down hill. Don't know about the gaffer tape. Seems a rather strange item to pack into your bag on a sleeper journey.

 

[TimboM]

Of course whilst it's only an "interim" measure whilst the Class 73s get sorted, with GBRF'a penchant for livening up their 66s with all manner of colourful liveries, I'm surprised they've not painted one or two in Caledonian Sleeper livery yet...?!

 

[47271]

Yes exactly, and I too was in the middle of the coach. This sound was only north of Edinburgh. My diagnosis was that it was something to do with breaking or application of brakes, such as slowing the train as it travelled down hill. Don't know about the gaffer tape. Seems a rather strange item to pack into your bag on a sleeper journey.

Now that you've confirmed it was only north of Edinburgh, I know *exactly* the sound you mean. It rises and falls and appears to be separate to the more constant hum of the aircon, which is the noise like a fridge under the floor.

I've always assumed that it's connected with the diesel locomotive and that it rises and falls in line with power applied. It does sound like a ghostly engine note. However, I've never been able to work out how I can be hearing this five or six coaches back from the diesel.

Technical experts: is there anything different in the way that a diesel delivers ETS that could cause this sound, bearing in mind that the last time I heard it the train loco was a 66 and the 73 was doing no more than providing hotel power?

As for the brakes theory - discs on mk3s are near silent in operation, the only braking noise you get on the sleeper is the awful din from the treads on the mk2s. You could be hearing this in the adjacent coach, but there's no reason why you wouldn't get this under electric power as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not the motor-alternator set?

 

[CosherB]

Of course whilst it's only an "interim" measure whilst the Class 73s get sorted, with GBRF'a penchant for livening up their 66s with all manner of colourful liveries, I'm surprised they've not painted one or two in Caledonian Sleeper livery yet...?!

No chance. Why would they?

 

[TimboM]

No chance. Why would they?

Comment was largely tongue-in-cheek referring to GBRf's many interesting liveries on their 66s.

I don't suspect they will paint any in CS livery, however they do have two in the Belmond Royal Scotsman livery for that contract. I understand the Caledonian Sleeper contract requires a certain % (80%?) of trains to be hauled by locos in the CS livery. Not sure if one out of the two in a double-header being in the right livery counts or is only half a point...?

 

[BRX]

Maybe I'm a bit weird but I actually quite enjoy all the strange noises on sleeper trains; I find them kind of soothing. And when travelling in couchette compartments on the continent...the more noises from the train the better really, to drown out the snoring of fellow passengers.

 

[Airline Man]

Does anyone know why the Aberdeen to Edinburgh was cancelled last night? Passengers were put on a cross country service to Edinburgh that was held up for them.

 

[47271]

Does anyone know why the Aberdeen to Edinburgh was cancelled last night? Passengers were put on a cross country service to Edinburgh that was held up for them.

I don't know on the Aberdeen but the full set arrived at Euston this morning, so they managed to shift the stock regardless.

The Inverness section was far from perfect either I believe: a knackered lounge plus 30mins late running caused by the 73 failing to provide hotel power. Good job the 66 powers on...

Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does anyone know why the Aberdeen to Edinburgh was cancelled last night? Passengers were put on a cross country service to Edinburgh that was held up for them.

Quoted as a train fault by the Sleeper people on Twitter, but nothing more specific than that.

 

[marks87]

Last night's Aberdeen stock ran ECS 13 minutes behind the XC service.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O47010/2016/11/20/advanced

Which would suggest a problem with the 73.