Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[87015]

ECS of the Glasgow come to grief on Camden Bank and blocked half of Euston up for a while in the morning peak, oops. Presume 87002 as believe the can is out of service(?)

 

[BRX]

What's funny about the most recent sequence of posts is that, try as I might in conversation, I can't get very regular users of the Inverness sleeper to register the slightest interest in the implications of unreliable traction. Their view is that it gets through 99% of the time and that they can't think of a recent occasion when they've been inconvenienced by a motive power or ETS problem. If they have been in the past then they've got longer in bed and are quite happy with that.

Maybe the 73s are rubbish, but I can't seem to find any reports of serious dismay, presumably so long as the 66s are doing the business alongside them.

I agree that sleeper passengers are reasonably tolerant of delays. The highland sleepers have had a reputation for years for sometimes arriving rather late and regular passengers know this will happen now and again. For leisure travellers it means a bit longer in bed and a bit more time to watch the scenery go by with their breakfast.

What's a much bigger problem is when people are bustituted. That significantly harms perception I think. Effectively removes the whole point of using the sleeper.

 

[Holly]

I agree that sleeper passengers are reasonably tolerant of delays. The highland sleepers have had a reputation for years for sometimes arriving rather late and regular passengers know this will happen now and again. For leisure travellers it means a bit longer in bed and a bit more time to watch the scenery go by with their breakfast.
What's a much bigger problem is when people are bustituted. That significantly harms perception I think. Effectively removes the whole point of using the sleeper.

Agreed.
I would have thought that being bustituted was less desirable than having to travel in a sleeper without electricity.

Back in the 1950s I recall it being quite common that the dynamos on coaches would fail and you would travel without electricity. Or with dim lights that got progressively dimmer as the journey went on. This on the Liverpool-Crewe steam hauled service. It just meant that reading a newspaper was not an option is all.

 

[najaB]

I would have thought that being bustituted was less desirable than having to travel in a sleeper without electricity.

In July I might agree, in December when the coaches have been without power (i.e. heating) all day - not so much.

 

[47271]

The particular mode of bustitution here is especially frustrating and farcical, and the same thing happened during the Scotrail conductors dispute back in the summer.

It's bad enough getting put on a bus, but one that effectively runs alongside the train until either ETS or guard can be obtained is doubly annoying.

They can't run safely without power - no light is much more of an issue than no heat or aircon. A lack of cabin temperature control certainly hasn't stopped them from running in the past.

 

[cf111]

If the Sleeper fails at Euston then, at least in my two experiences, they put you up in the train for the night and then you travel north on Virgin East/West Coast the next morning. Wouldn't always work for obvious reasons at the northern ends of the route but for when it happened to me I was a lot happier than I would have been on a bus.

 

[captainbigun]

ECS of the Glasgow come to grief on Camden Bank and blocked half of Euston up for a while in the morning peak, oops. Presume 87002 as believe the can is out of service(?)

Yes and no, 86101 at WEFOC.

 

[adrock1976]

Yes and no, 86101 at WEFOC.

Sorry to be a pain, but could you please tell me what the above acronym is please?

 

[bb21]

Wembley Euro Freight Ops Centre, I think.

 

[33056]

86101 at WEFOC.

What is it doing there? Been there a number of days now and shows at Wembley TC on TOPS

Wembley Euro Freight Ops Centre, I think.

Correct

 

[37038]

Just to point out most of the 37/4s use there ETH regularly.

JP

Not exactly all of them all of the time is it?!

It pretty much is actually. Don't take the mick when all but 421 of the operational locos use their EH most days. 2 in cumbria and 2 in anglia which invariably swap out for others during the week. Less so with Anglia.

That's correct, someone from SCS. I have never said this a 100% goer and it would depend if GB could provide drivers as one the reasons 1S25 took a bit hit on Friday morning was because the driver on it doesn't sign 92s so the B26 loco couldn't be used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do not stand on the end of platforms an most certainly did not hear this from enthusiasts, photters, spotters or whatever you call them these days.

Ft wiiliam and Aberdeen are less than 8 coaches.


All I've been told is that someone from serco was away looking at 37s and other locos at a location I will not disclose with a view to bringing them in. Happy?

It doesn't matter if it's platform end BS, mess room BS or any other form of BS. It's still BS.

I can tell you categorically that, despite the fact it probably isn't going to happen now, operations with 37s on the FW portion is not BS. It was discussed and Serco have been about looking.

 

[Highland37]

What's the traction on the FW portion right now? 66+73?

 

[Holly]

The particular mode of bustitution here is especially frustrating and farcical, and the same thing happened during the Scotrail conductors dispute back in the summer.
It's bad enough getting put on a bus, but one that effectively runs alongside the train until either ETS or guard can be obtained is doubly annoying.
They can't run safely without power - no light is much more of an issue than no heat or aircon. A lack of cabin temperature control certainly hasn't stopped them from running in the past.

In this day and age they could just hand each passenger an LED torch for lighting. Ideally one with both dim and full settings.

 

[Fishplate84]

I can tell you categorically that, despite the fact it probably isn't going to happen now, operations with 37s on the FW portion is not BS. It was discussed and Serco have been about looking.

Why would Serco be about looking. They have a hook and haul contract with GBRf. It is GBRf's responsibility to provide either the traction they offered Serco originally (73s and 92s) or a suitable alternative so as to deliver the service and train performance reliably.
As someone said earlier, in reality, 99% of passengers couldn't give a stuff about whats pulling the train – its irrelevant, so long as the train run, runs to time, and provides power to the coaches. 66s and 73's, 87s, 90s, 92s, 67s... it really doesn't matter. On the relatively often number of times I've used the sleeper there has been all sorts of combinations but what actually mattered was that the train left on time, arrived on time and was a comfortably smooth ride with good onboard service. Which without exception, it has.

While I'd hope that GBRf and Serco are working in strong partnership, something GBRf have a generally good reputation for with all their customers, its GBRf who should be looking for traction options in the market, with Serco focused on the customer and coaching stock.

 

[CosherB]

It pretty much is actually. Don't take the mick when all but 421 of the operational locos use their EH most days. 2 in cumbria and 2 in anglia which invariably swap out for others during the week. Less so with Anglia.

Cheer up old boy, it was just some banter! :roll:

I can tell you categorically that, despite the fact it probably isn't going to happen now, operations with 37s on the FW portion is not BS. It was discussed and Serco have been about looking.

Like others on here, we have no idea how credible your source is, however, I am also surprised that Serco are being mentioned in this light. GBRf has the 15 year traction supply deal, so for a company that (as far as I know) has no history with 37s, I find this story odd to say the least. I have no idea why they would want to try to use 37/4s that are likely to be unavailable from DRS or Colas, or why they would want any non-ETS 37s at all. Surely 47/8s would have been more likely, as sole motive power or as an ETHEL with a 66?

 

[crewmeal]

With all the talk of motive power failures on here what's it going to be like when Scot Rail introduce the new rolling stock in the next couple of years? Will they be able to match up the motive power? We'll have to wait and see!

 

[CosherB]

With all the talk of motive power failures on here what's it going to be like when Scot Rail introduce the new rolling stock in the next couple of years? Will they be able to match up the motive power? We'll have to wait and see!

By then, GBRf will hope to have sorted out the gremlins with the 73/9s and the 92s. In the case of the 92s, there is (at present) no alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If ETH failure is a likely scenario, in the new stock they really should consider providing good capacity coach batteries and using low-voltage LED lighting and emergency ventilation so the train can remain in service if power is lost.

The thing is that if you get turfed off a VTWC train to Scotland at Carlisle during the day and put on a bus/the next train it's a bit annoying and you get an hour or so's delay. If you get turfed off at 3am, that's your following day completely ruined.

 

[marks87]

By then, GBRf will hope to have sorted out the gremlins with the 73/9s and the 92s. In the case of the 92s, there is (at present) no alternative.

What about a pair of 90s top+tail? Would that provide double the usual 90 ETH, or does it not work like that?

Not that I think the 92s won't ultimately be fine. But it would be equally be good to have a contingency.

 

[captainbigun]

What about a pair of 90s top+tail? Would that provide double the usual 90 ETH, or does it not work like that?

Not that I think the 92s won't ultimately be fine. But it would be equally be good to have a contingency.

Aside from the fact that there may or may not be 90s, the new stock runs at UIC ETS supply voltage, 1500V, due to the overall supply requirement. The only loco that can provide that is a 92. The portions are a different matter as the requirement is at most 50%.

And no, it wouldn't work like that. You'd have to split the supply in the middle of the train, with the operational headache that would cause, and then accept a 80mph top speed because of two pans.

 

[adrock1976]

Could somebody be kind enough to explain what or who on earth is ETHEL? Also ETH as well.

I do believe it is part of the forum rules not to use acronyms without first saying what it is.

 

[ld0595]

Could somebody be kind enough to explain what or who on earth is ETHEL? Also ETH as well.

I do believe it is part of the forum rules not to use acronyms without first saying what it is.

As far as I'm aware although someone can correct me if I'm wrong,

ETH - Electric Train Heating
ETHEL - Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotives

 

[CosherB]

What about a pair of 90s top+tail? Would that provide double the usual 90 ETH, or does it not work like that?

Not that I think the 92s won't ultimately be fine. But it would be equally be good to have a contingency.

I doubt that GBRf would be too impressed having to long-term hire at least 8 DBC locos!

Whilst I am certainly no technical expert when it comes to ETS, I understand that ETS is not additive when using multiple locos - others will no doubt confirm or otherwise.

 

[adrock1976]

As far as I'm aware although someone can correct me if I'm wrong,

ETH - Electric Train Heating
ETHEL - Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotives

Thanks very much for clarifying that for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aside from the fact that there may or may not be 90s, the new stock runs at UIC ETS supply voltage, 1500V, due to the overall supply requirement. The only loco that can provide that is a 92. The portions are a different matter as the requirement is at most 50%.

Didn't we make that mistake with some Sleeper stock before, that might otherwise, once its original purpose went away, have been used on the Caledonian and Westcountry sleepers rather than being flogged off on the cheap to the Canadians?

 

[marks87]

Aside from the fact that there may or may not be 90s, the new stock runs at UIC ETS supply voltage, 1500V, due to the overall supply requirement. The only loco that can provide that is a 92. The portions are a different matter as the requirement is at most 50%.

And no, it wouldn't work like that. You'd have to split the supply in the middle of the train, with the operational headache that would cause, and then accept a 80mph top speed because of two pans.

Thanks for explaining.

As far as I'm aware although someone can correct me if I'm wrong,

ETH - Electric Train Heating
ETHEL - Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotives

Although strictly speaking the 73s aren't "ETHELs" because they're still very much "Ls".

 

[matchmaker]

As far as I'm aware although someone can correct me if I'm wrong,

ETH - Electric Train Heating
ETHEL - Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotives

ETH should really be ETS - Electric Train Supply - as it does a lot more than heating.

 

[CosherB]

Didn't we make that mistake with some Sleeper stock before, that might otherwise, once its original purpose went away, have been used on the Caledonian and Westcountry sleepers rather than being flogged off on the cheap to the Canadians?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2483531&postcount=29

 

[37038]

Why would Serco be about looking. They have a hook and haul contract with GBRf. It is GBRf's responsibility to provide either the traction they offered Serco originally (73s and 92s) or a suitable alternative so as to deliver the service and train performance reliably.
As someone said earlier, in reality, 99% of passengers couldn't give a stuff about whats pulling the train – its irrelevant, so long as the train run, runs to time, and provides power to the coaches. 66s and 73's, 87s, 90s, 92s, 67s... it really doesn't matter. On the relatively often number of times I've used the sleeper there has been all sorts of combinations but what actually mattered was that the train left on time, arrived on time and was a comfortably smooth ride with good onboard service. Which without exception, it has.

While I'd hope that GBRf and Serco are working in strong partnership, something GBRf have a generally good reputation for with all their customers, its GBRf who should be looking for traction options in the market, with Serco focused on the customer and coaching stock.

We hope they are in the long term. However in the short term GBRf have not delivered particularly well. Everything will become right and there's no reason why the refurbished 92s and rebuilt 73s can't perform admirably for the next 13 or so years.

However, a short term fix was, at one point, likely to be required.

Cheer up old boy, it was just some banter! :roll:



Like others on here, we have no idea how credible your source is, however, I am also surprised that Serco are being mentioned in this light. GBRf has the 15 year traction supply deal, so for a company that (as far as I know) has no history with 37s, I find this story odd to say the least. I have no idea why they would want to try to use 37/4s that are likely to be unavailable from DRS or Colas, or why they would want any non-ETS 37s at all. Surely 47/8s would have been more likely, as sole motive power or as an ETHEL with a 66?

GBRf men from Tonbridge were route conducted to Inverness on 37025's tour on July 16 (believe it or not...)
Colas only have one /4. DRS have just about enough to cover a couple in Scotland on hire. That's obviously hypothetical now as it won't happen. Especially when 407 appears and 423 comes off F exam.

 

[CosherB]

We hope they are in the long term. However in the short term GBRf have not delivered particularly well. Everything will become right and there's no reason why the refurbished 92s and rebuilt 73s can't perform admirably for the next 13 or so

Evidence would suggest that GBRf has delivered very well, despite the traction problems. It's not ideal having the 73/9s falling over, even as ETHELs, but GBRf has mitigated these issues with 'innovative' uses of 66s (and a 47).