Cambrian hourly service consultation

[Gareth Marston]

Next SARPA is meeting is at Shrewsbury Railway Station on Tuesday 6th May @ 1745 Guest Speaker is Mansel Williams. I'm sure a lot of stuff not in public domain about the process, proposed tt etc may be discussed. SARPA are usually happy for non members to attend.

 

[berneyarms]

the trains in the middle of the day still at 2hrly can split/join so "maintaining" the through service.

Not quite - you will still presumably have the two early trains returning to Machynlleth from Aberystwyth after their spin to Shrewsbury and back, and they will be returning back after the break from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth - they will presumably run in the hourly pattern.

Effectively you will have an hourly Aberystwyth/Machynlleth and v.v. service all day.

 

[IKBrunel]

Cue an outbreak of complaints from those on the coast line complaining about having a worse service (no through trains/needing to change at Dovey Junction).

Was the line from Mach to Dyfi Junction ever double in the past? it looks like there is enough railway land for it to be doubled without major civils works. Alignment is mostly on a small embankment. A few underbridges for livestock/footpaths. Don't suppose there will be justification for the cost any time soon though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was the line from Mach to Dyfi Junction ever double in the past? it looks like there is enough railway land for it to be doubled without major civils works. Alignment is mostly on a small embankment. A few underbridges for livestock/footpaths. Don't suppose there will be justification for the cost any time soon though.

According to the GWR Atlas (1947), it wasn't.
Apart from at passing places the double track sections were:
Buttington-Forden (7 miles),
Newtown-Moat Lane (5 miles),
and the final mile into Aberystwyth.
Also the mile Afon Wen-Penychain on the coast line .
And Sutton Bridge Jn-Cruckmeole Jn leaving Shrewsbury (4.5 miles).

 

[philjo]

The standard 'Anne' splitting trains plays at Smethwick Galton Bridge.

"Platform 3 for the xx xx Arriva Trains Wales service to Pwllheli and Aberystwyth. Calling at Wolverhamtpon, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury, Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws and Machynlleth where the train divides. Please travel in the from two coaches of the train for Dovey Junction, Penhelig, Aberdovey ... Penychain, Aberech and Pwllheli. Please travel in the rear two coaches of the train for Dovey Junction, Borth and Aberystwyth. Penhelig, Tonfanau ... Penychain and Aberech are request stops and passengers for these stations should ask the conductor on the train to arrange for the train to stop to allow them to alight. Platform 3 for the xx xx Arriva Trains Wales service to Pwllheli and Aberystwyth."

Takes some time!

At least that announcement is only in English! If played at a Welsh station it would also have to be in Welsh. I heard the Heart of Wales line announcement at Swansea recently - in Welsh & English. That certainly took a few minutes!


Will the coast train be waiting at Dovey junction before the aber/Birmingham train arrives (so it effectively can used to wait in the warm until it is nearly time for the other train) - I wouldn't want to wait at Dovey junction on a winter's night!

 

[transmanche]

At least that announcement is only in English! If played at a Welsh station it would also have to be in Welsh. I heard the Heart of Wales line announcement at Swansea recently - in Welsh & English. That certainly took a few minutes!

I don't know about Shrewsbury, but Gobowen used to play out the announcements in Welsh (male) and English (female). But the Welsh announcements have disappeared.

 

[Gareth Marston]

According to the GWR Atlas (1947), it wasn't.
Apart from at passing places the double track sections were:
Buttington-Forden (7 miles),
Newtown-Moat Lane (5 miles),
and the final mile into Aberystwyth.
Also the mile Afon Wen-Penychain on the coast line .
And Sutton Bridge Jn-Cruckmeole Jn leaving Shrewsbury (4.5 miles).

Butlins Penychain was built as a rail served facility, eleven summer Saturday extra trains served it in summer 59 in each direction 6 via Caernarfon.

 

[PHILIPE]

At least that announcement is only in English! If played at a Welsh station it would also have to be in Welsh. I heard the Heart of Wales line announcement at Swansea recently - in Welsh & English. That certainly took a few minutes!


Will the coast train be waiting at Dovey junction before the aber/Birmingham train arrives (so it effectively can used to wait in the warm until it is nearly time for the other train) - I wouldn't want to wait at Dovey junction on a winter's night!

The next train has now come and gone without any announcement because the HOW was still being announced. Joking. of course.

 

[berneyarms]

Will the coast train be waiting at Dovey junction before the aber/Birmingham train arrives (so it effectively can used to wait in the warm until it is nearly time for the other train) - I wouldn't want to wait at Dovey junction on a winter's night!

Yes - the coast line train will be there already.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't know about Shrewsbury, but Gobowen used to play out the announcements in Welsh (male) and English (female). But the Welsh announcements have disappeared.

That is correct about Gobowen, I understand the reasoning was a lot of Welsh is spoken around the Oswestry area,

Just up the road at the large Gobowen orthopedic hospital, every sign is bilingual within the site,

Are Cardiff Queen St announcements still in English only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Butlins Penychain was built as a rail served facility, eleven summer Saturday extra trains served it in summer 59 in each direction 6 via Caernarfon.

Billy Butlin bought the facility from MOD and a few others,all had good rail connections being ex naval training camps.
Not sure what the 59 means Gareth.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not sure what the 59 means Gareth.

1959

 

[merlodlliw]

1959

Of course, thats me losing Gareths support to open the stations at Coedpoeth
and Minera.

 

[IKBrunel]

According to the GWR Atlas (1947), it wasn't.
Apart from at passing places the double track sections were:
Buttington-Forden (7 miles),
Newtown-Moat Lane (5 miles),
and the final mile into Aberystwyth.
Also the mile Afon Wen-Penychain on the coast line .
And Sutton Bridge Jn-Cruckmeole Jn leaving Shrewsbury (4.5 miles).

Ah ok thanks for that, so doubling Dyfi Jn to Mach would involve rebuilding a number of underbridges then. Not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am notifying you as the Secretary of the Joint Shrewsbury Aberystwyth Cambrian Coast Conference of the Welsh Government Ministers Statement on the enhanced service planned for the main lines with a target date of May 2015. This represents the culmination of much effort over the years by the Shrewsbury Aberystwyth Railway Liaison Committee and our Cambrian Coast colleagues. We wish to thank the many people and organisations that have helped us to make the case for an improved service. We also extend our congratulations to our colleagues on the Heart of Wales Line, who have also received excellent news today.
We are to expect an enhanced service from May 2015 and we will be carrying out further work aimed at helping us to influence the specification for the 2018 franchise. We hope that this will ultimately result in further service improvements.
The Chairman of the Shrewsbury Aberystwyth RLC will be writing to thank Mrs Hart for the hard-won investment in the Cambrian lines: particularly significant at a time when resources are so stretched.
Please note that the precise final timetable is still work in progress and we will inform you at the earliest opportunity when a finalised timetable is agreed..

Robert Robinson
Robert Robinson FRICS AILCM Secretary

 

[merlodlliw]

Unless ive missed it,what is the actual funding in £M, Welsh Gov have awarded to ATW to run the Cambrian extras 3 year trial.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Unless ive missed it,what is the actual funding in £M, Welsh Gov have awarded to ATW to run the Cambrian extras 3 year trial.

Not seen anything.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not seen anything.

Change of tack,or track in this announcement,The Minister IWJ who has now left the Assembly announced the funding awarded to ATW immediately for the Fishguard three year trial.This trial has to be multi £Millions.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Change of tack,or track in this announcement,The Minister IWJ who has now left the Assembly announced the funding awarded to ATW immediately for the Fishguard three year trial.This trial has to be multi £Millions.

I know I provided Mansel with a ball park figure using the Fishguard costs as a template unless anyone was trying to pull a funny one. Calculating the cost per extra train Mile or KM for the Fishguard trial was quite straightforward, off the top of my head there were something in the region of 300 to 350 extra train miles per day for the £1.4million per annum.

The extra train miles on the Heart of Wales is something around 200 miles a day so roughly I'd imagine ATW would be looking for c£850k per annum.

The Cambrian extra train miles assuming there overlaid on top of the existing pattern are 656 which would give c£3 million per annum. However there could be some scope to reduce this if fewer trains run as 4 car between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury.

 

[merlodlliw]

Difficult to put the Cambrian cost together, I appreciate costings can be difficult,however we have I think 20 extra jobs due to the Cambrian trials,I wonder will these jobs for three years be fixed term like every other WG funding recipients?
I also appreciate once these extra trains start to run, it will be difficult for any future Minister to scrub them.
I also note the extra 2 Sunday trains already run May to Sept,so the costs for these will be reduced as ATW already pay for them.Similar on the coast section with summer extras.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Difficult to put the Cambrian cost together, I appreciate costings can be difficult,however we have I think 20 extra jobs due to the Cambrian trials,I wonder will these jobs for three years be fixed term like every other WG funding recipients?
I also appreciate once these extra trains start to run, it will be difficult for any future Minister to scrub them.
I also note the extra 2 Sunday trains already run May to Sept,so the costs for these will be reduced as ATW already pay for them.Similar on the coast section with summer extras.

ATW will be the employer, it's different to the old fixed term European money appointments that had to be fixed term, even a small depot like Machynlleth has some natural wastage retirements etc so I'd imagine they,d be permanent employees.

The earlier summer Sunday westbound train was there in BR days so got written into the franchise agreement, the coast will still have it's winter one train a day on a Sunday until mid May even though decent weather in Easter and the first May bank holiday can se the coast heaving lets hope this gets addressed.

 

[berneyarms]

ATW will be the employer, it's different to the old fixed term European money appointments that had to be fixed term, even a small depot like Machynlleth has some natural wastage retirements etc so I'd imagine they,d be permanent employees.

The earlier summer Sunday westbound train was there in BR days so got written into the franchise agreement, the coast will still have it's winter one train a day on a Sunday until mid May even though decent weather in Easter and the first May bank holiday can se the coast heaving lets hope this gets addressed.

When are the extra Cambrian mainline services on Sundays most needed Gareth?

I'm guessing 14:30 and 16:30 eastbound and 16:30 and 18:30 westbound?

Or would you say one in the morning and one in the afternoon?

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW will be the employer, it's different to the old fixed term European money appointments that had to be fixed term, even a small depot like Machynlleth has some natural wastage retirements etc so I'd imagine they,d be permanent employees.

The earlier summer Sunday westbound train was there in BR days so got written into the franchise agreement, the coast will still have it's winter one train a day on a Sunday until mid May even though decent weather in Easter and the first May bank holiday can se the coast heaving lets hope this gets addressed.

Yes ATW or another toc,whoever wins the franchise will be the employer. I suppose I am so used to WG fixed term contracts in the Voluntary sector, natural wastage of course applies to all Companies. I realise anyone working for a toc has no idea who the next employer will be, as for the coast Sunday service, I hope it improves. Time will tell.

 

[Gareth Marston]

When are the extra Cambrian mainline services on Sundays most needed Gareth?

I'm guessing 14:30 and 16:30 eastbound and 16:30 and 18:30 westbound?

Or would you say one in the morning and one in the afternoon?

The current Sunday service on the mainline is quite good 6 trains each way definitely eastbound times sound good but the Sunday return market for eastbound is not as strong.

 

[berneyarms]

The current Sunday service on the mainline is quite good 6 trains each way definitely eastbound times sound good but the Sunday return market for eastbound is not as strong.

Well I'm assuming these will be Machynlleth based, so they will need to go back!

 

[merlodlliw]

Well I'm assuming these will be Machynlleth based, so they will need to go back!

The first summer Sunday service starts at Shrewsbury.

 

[berneyarms]

The first summer Sunday service starts at Shrewsbury.

I know that - but it simply replaces a later morning service from Shrewsbury. It's not an extra train.

Look at the service patterns.

Westbound, the winter pattern is
From Machynlleth - 08:50, 10:50
From Shrewsbury - 11:27, 13:27, 15:27, 17:27, 19:27 and 21:30

The summer pattern is:
From Machynlleth - 08:50, 10:50, 12:35
From Shrewsbury - 08:45, 13:27, 15:27, 17:27, 19:27 and 21:30

Eastbound, the winter and summer patterns are identical.
From Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury: 09:30, 11:30, 13:30, 15:30, 17:30, 19:30
From Aberystwyth to Machynlleth: 21:30, 23:30

What happens in the summer is that the 11:27 is advanced to 08:45, and then it is joined by an extra unit at Aberystwyth.

Hence my question above as to how best that the additional units could be used on Sundays.

 

[30907]

Eastbound, the winter pattern is
From Machynlleth - 08:50, 10:50
From Shrewsbury - 11:27, 13:27, 15:27, 17:27, 19:27 and 21:30

Really confused me until I realised Berney Arms must be in West Anglia -

 

[merlodlliw]

I know that - but it simply replaces a later morning service from Shrewsbury. It's not an extra train.

I never said it was an extra,I just presumed a train around 11.30am in last summers timetable left Salop,I don't have the current timetable for 2014,so I can not know the situation in a few weeks time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is how North Wales Rail website sees it,with a bit more beef on the Act and its regulations

North Wales Rail website dated 14th April written by Charlie Hume Editor
More trains for the Cambrian

Transport Minister Edwina Hart has announced that from May 2015 four additional return services will operate between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, Mondays - Saturdays, providing an hourly service at peak morning and afternoon times. There will also be two new return Sunday services, and an improvement to evening services on the Cambrian Coast between Barmouth and Pwllheli. The new services will create 20 new train crew and depot jobs, and will be on an initial three-year trial basis.

On the Heart of Wales line, there will be extra journeys between Llandovery and Gowerton/Swansea and between Llandrindod and Shrewsbury/Crewe offering good morning commuting opportunities on Mondays – Fridays. Other return services will become more conveniently timed and the Heart of Wales Line Forum gets funding to explore the possibility of further improvements to the line.

Our Comment: The most-welcome extra services are, or course, the reason why extra passing loops were installed on the Cambrian some years ago now. The press release tells us that 'additional services on both railways are designated for a three year trial under Section 36 of the Railways Act 2005 “experimental services” designation'. The same was said when more trains to Fishguard were introduced in 2011; there seem to be a re-interpretation by the Welsh Government of the original purpose of the so-called 'Speller' (named for the late Tony Speller MP who sponsored it) legislation which covered the opening or re-opening of sections of line and/or stations, not simple timetable improvements or reductions which surely do not require this legal sanction.

 

[berneyarms]

Looking at the new timetable on the National Rail site, there is going to be an extra Sunday service this summer from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth - both the 08:45 and 11:27 will operate during the summer.

 

[strettonarms96]

Looking at the new timetable on the National Rail site, there is going to be an extra Sunday service this summer from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth - both the 08:45 and 11:27 will operate during the summer.

They always did run. The 0845 just replaces the 0927