Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[no commute yet]

Is this not just yet another study? The current strategy of the government or whoever just seems to be raising local hopes (and not just on this line) to get good headlines by promising a report/study/enquiry which has the effect of delaying any actual action.

Only if it’s allowed to just be that. 3 years ago no one thought this line would come back in to passenger use. Now everyone thinks it will. Allthe work now is going to go in to making it happen asap -we’ll build Middlewich station ourselves if we have to!

 

[johnnychips]

I think your second ever post in this thread (#4) in 2015 - sorry I don’t know how to link it - said that a study had been done giving a BCR of 5:1. Why do we need yet another?

Excuse my cynicism: I do wish you the best of luck as this sounds one of the more sensible reopenings proposed on here.

 

[Altfish]

As with all these campaign, you have to be in it for the long run.
Articles like this are keeping it in the minds of locals, it becomes a vote winner and gains more publicity.

It'll happen, hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think your second ever post in this thread (#4) in 2015 - sorry I don’t know how to link it - said that a study had been done giving a BCR of 5:1. Why do we need yet another?

Excuse my cynicism: I do wish you the best of luck as this sounds one of the more sensible reopenings proposed on here.

Because apparently the BCR has improved now so would help more to get the line re-opened.

 

[johnnychips]

Because apparently the BCR has improved now so would help more to get the line re-opened.

And which study tells you that the BCR has improved since then? How many more studies are needed?

 

[LOL The Irony]

And which study tells you that the BCR has improved since then? How many more studies are needed?

You missed the apparently part

 

[johnnychips]

You missed the apparently part

Where did you find out it was apparently better? 5:1 sounds good enough for me!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Only if it’s allowed to just be that. 3 years ago no one thought this line would come back in to passenger use. Now everyone thinks it will. Allthe work now is going to go in to making it happen asap -we’ll build Middlewich station ourselves if we have to!

Even if you build the station, noting all the hoops that you will have to jump through to achieve that aspiration and the construction costs that you will have to bear, the matter of actually having a train service provided is still an unresolved equation.

Just think, if such a service was currently running, would it have been affected by the two-day RMT strike last week?

 

[Altfish]

Even if you build the station, noting all the hoops that you will have to jump through to achieve that aspiration and the construction costs that you will have to bear, the matter of actually having a train service provided is still an unresolved equation.

Just think, if such a service was currently running, would it have been affected by the two-day RMT strike last week?

There is currently a plan for a second train per hour on the Mid-Cheshire Line which will run to Greenbank; I would have though diverting this train run to Crewe via Middlewich would be the obvious answer.
Since it would likely be a Northern service, then yes, it would have been effected by the strikes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is currently a plan for a second train per hour on the Mid-Cheshire Line which will run to Greenbank.

Sorry if I need a clarification on that matter, but has there been any amendments made to the proposed services to Greenbank as part of the timetabling amendments recently made?

 

[Altfish]

Sorry if I need a clarification on that matter, but has there been any amendments made to the proposed services to Greenbank as part of the timetabling amendments recently made?

Paul
They should have been, but due to the delay in electrification of the Bolton line, the expected freed up diesels have not appeared; so it is currently delayed until the December changes.

 

[backontrack]

Sorry if I need a clarification on that matter, but has there been any amendments made to the proposed services to Greenbank as part of the timetabling amendments recently made?

Paul
They should have been, but due to the delay in electrification of the Bolton line, the expected freed up diesels have not appeared; so it is currently delayed until the December changes.

When the new Greenbank service starts, it will mop up some of the smaller stations on the Chester services. This will be the calling pattern:

MONDAYS-SATURDAYS
One train per hour: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > GREENBANK

1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Altrincham > Hale > Knutsford > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

This gives Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank a 2tph frequency of service to/from Manchester Piccadilly.

SUNDAY:
1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

 

[childwallblues]

When the new Greenbank service starts, it will mop up some of the smaller stations on the Chester services. This will be the calling pattern:

MONDAYS-SATURDAYS
One train per hour: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > GREENBANK

1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Altrincham > Hale > Knutsford > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

This gives Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank a 2tph frequency of service to/from Manchester Piccadilly.

SUNDAY:
1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

Not a bad service

 

[LOL The Irony]

Where did you find out it was apparently better? 5:1 sounds good enough for me!

People chatting earlier in the thread. Maybe a couple pages back although I agree that a 5:1 BCR is sufficient enough.

 

[backontrack]

Not a bad service

No. It also gives you a handy service to extend to Crewe via Middlewich and Sandbach, though it would probably be quite slow with all those stops so they might want to consider skip-stopping if it did go ahead (i.e. the Crewe service would call at Ashley & Mobberley, and the Chester service would serve Plumley & Lostock Gralam).

 

[LOL The Irony]

No. It also gives you a handy service to extend to Crewe via Middlewich and Sandbach, though it would probably be quite slow with all those stops so they might want to consider skip-stopping if it did go ahead (i.e. the Crewe service would call at Ashley & Mobberley, and the Chester service would serve Plumley & Lostock Gralam).

Or just have a Crewe - Navigation Road service

 

[backontrack]

Or just have a Crewe - Navigation Road service

Why would you want to do that? The frequency between Manchester and Greenbank wouldn't be increasing, so there would be no issue about paths (provided an hourly path in each direction could be found between Sandbach and Crewe).

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why would you want to do that? The frequency between Manchester and Greenbank wouldn't be increasing, so there would be no issue about paths (provided an hourly path in each direction could be found between Sandbach and Crewe).

Because Crewe - Piccadilly already exists

 

[backontrack]

Because Crewe - Piccadilly already exists

But Middlewich-Piccadilly definitely does not exist...in fact, giving Middlewich a train service is the entire point of the reopening! Why are you suggesting only giving Northwich and Knutsford 1tph into central Manchester again when they've just been given a second tph? And what's the point of reopening Middlewich station if all the passengers have to jump out onto a tram at Navigation Road?

Frankly, I don't see it. What do you gain from terminating the Crewe (via Middlewich) service at Navigation Road?

 

[LOL The Irony]

But Middlewich-Piccadilly definitely does not exist...in fact, giving Middlewich a train service is the entire point of the reopening! Why are you suggesting only giving Northwich and Knutsford 1tph into central Manchester again when they've just been given a second tph? And what's the point of reopening Middlewich station if all the passengers have to jump out onto a tram at Navigation Road?

Frankly, I don't see it. What do you gain from terminating the Crewe (via Middlewich) service at Navigation Road?

You assumed I meant keep 2 services. I wanted to increase services.

 

[backontrack]

You assumed I meant keep 2 services. I wanted to increase services.

Hmm. I can now see where you're coming from a bit better...that does solve the problem of keeping the Middlewich services semi-fast. I would want services to run like this:

1tph: Manchester-Stockport-Navigation Road-Altrincham-Hale-Knutsford-Northwich-Gadbrook Park-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe
1tph: Manchester-Stockport-Altrincham-Hale-Knutsford-Northwich-Greenbank-Cuddington-Delamere-Mouldsworth-Chester
1tph: Stockport-Navigation Road-Altrincham-Hale-Ashley-Mobberley-Knutsford-Plumley-Lostock Gralam-Northwich-Greenbank

Stockport seems like a better place to terminate than Navigation Road, seeing as it has increased connectivity and turnback facilities - plus some Mid-Cheshire Line trains already do so. The only issue in the above is that Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley and Lostock Gralam lose their own direct Manchester services. Hmm. I wonder if tram-train operation is the answer...

 

[Ianno87]

And which study tells you that the BCR has improved since then? How many more studies are needed?

The original study looks like it was fairly light on engineering feasibility, and probably made a number of assumptions - costs come out as pretty low as a result. And assumes quite a level of synergy with planned/seperately funded renewals.

The optimism bias applied to the costs (see 6.7) seems very low (40% for stations, 6% for trackwork), not (as far as I'm aware) in line with standard appraisal guidelines, just using engineering judgement.

Short answer is: Digging into the engineering a little more may make that BCR suddenly seem not quite so rosy....

But 5:1 does suggest "lets have a more detailed look"

 

[Altfish]

When the new Greenbank service starts, it will mop up some of the smaller stations on the Chester services. This will be the calling pattern:

MONDAYS-SATURDAYS
One train per hour: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > GREENBANK

1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Altrincham > Hale > Knutsford > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

This gives Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank a 2tph frequency of service to/from Manchester Piccadilly.

SUNDAY:
1tph: MANCHESTER PICCADILLY > Stockport > Navigation Road > Altrincham > Hale > Ashley > Mobberley > Knutsford > Plumley > Lostock Gralam > Northwich > Greenbank > Cuddington > Delamere > Mouldsworth > CHESTER

Are you sure that is correct?
I understood the semi-fast terminates at Greenbank; the stopper goes all the way to Chester.
If your pattern is correct that gives a worse service for the 'lesser' stations. e.g. If you are travelling from Navigation Road to Chester you will have to change at Greenbank and wait 20-minutes for the following train. Therefore an hour long journey becomes a 80-minute journey.

 

[backontrack]

Are you sure that is correct?
I understood the semi-fast terminates at Greenbank; the stopper goes all the way to Chester.
If your pattern is correct that gives a worse service for the 'lesser' stations. e.g. If you are travelling from Navigation Road to Chester you will have to change at Greenbank and wait 20-minutes for the following train. Therefore an hour long journey becomes a 80-minute journey.

You're right, I might have got it the wrong way round.

 

[LOL The Irony]

@backontrack BTW Rudheath is going to be Gadbrook Park

 

[backontrack]

@backontrack BTW Rudheath is going to be Gadbrook Park

Now corrected, thanks.

 

[pemma]

Are you sure that is correct?
I understood the semi-fast terminates at Greenbank; the stopper goes all the way to Chester.
If your pattern is correct that gives a worse service for the 'lesser' stations. e.g. If you are travelling from Navigation Road to Chester you will have to change at Greenbank and wait 20-minutes for the following train. Therefore an hour long journey becomes a 80-minute journey.

The franchise was let on the basis the Chester would be the semi-fast but after some pressure from MCRUA I think the current plan is for the Greenbank to be the semi-fasts. Personally, I'm of the opinion Greenbank being the semi-fast might do more harm than good. At Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham people are going to travel at the most convenient time, they aren't going to travel half an hour earlier because the train will be 5 minutes quicker getting to Manchester. Consequently, I think we could end up with Greenbank semi-fasts sailing through the village stations half empty and those boarding at village stations having to stand on the Chester services.

Apart from on Saturdays there is very little demand for Chester from Navigation Road, Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley and Lostock Gralam so I think the best solution would be Chester semi-fasts Mon-Fri and running 2tph to Chester on Saturday (when there's a lot more passengers travelling to Chester anyway) then on Saturdays it doesn't matter which is the semi-fast.

 

[Altfish]

The franchise was let on the basis the Chester would be the semi-fast but after some pressure from MCRUA I think the current plan is for the Greenbank to be the semi-fasts. Personally, I'm of the opinion Greenbank being the semi-fast might do more harm than good. At Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham people are going to travel at the most convenient time, they aren't going to travel half an hour earlier because the train will be 5 minutes quicker getting to Manchester. Consequently, I think we could end up with Greenbank semi-fasts sailing through the village stations half empty and those boarding at village stations having to stand on the Chester services.

Apart from on Saturdays there is very little demand for Chester from Navigation Road, Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley and Lostock Gralam so I think the best solution would be Chester semi-fasts Mon-Fri and running 2tph to Chester on Saturday (when there's a lot more passengers travelling to Chester anyway) then on Saturdays it doesn't matter which is the semi-fast.

I don't believe the franchise stated which train should be the semi-fast; but yes, I understand that MCRUA did push for the Greenbank service to be the semi-fast. I suspect their end game is for all trains to run to Chester anyway. Only time will tell what the loadings will be; your leave half an hour earlier example is not really fair as you actually arrive 35-minutes earlier!
If the Chester train is the semi-fast it means that between Greenbank and Chester it must revert to a stopper anyway or the intermediate stations lose their services.
The enhanced Sunday service (When it finally arrives) should see Delamere much better served and I certainly will go by train rather than driving there. If the midweek stopper trains terminated at Greenbank then they would lose my current custom and the car would be used instead.
Add in the Music Trains which currently pick up at all stations and the proposed service makes more sense.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Delamere should be all trains during the summer timetable

 

[pemma]

I don't believe the franchise stated which train should be the semi-fast; but yes, I understand that MCRUA did push for the Greenbank service to be the semi-fast.

Back when the ITT was released there was a mention in an accompanying document of the off-peak daytime Chester services being the semi-fasts but MCRUA dismissed that as guidance not a mandatory requirement. Then when the actual franchise documents were released it was revealed I think 8 services between Chester and Manchester in each direction have a different maximum journey time requirement to the others. That requirement means that if the off-peak Chester services are to be all-stops dwell times have to be reduced plus the option for adding extra minutes in leaf fall season would not be available.

Add in the Music Trains which currently pick up at all stations and the proposed service makes more sense.

The Greenbank extras won't run after the evening peak, so unless MCRUA are planning to have weekday off-peak music trains the music trains don't come in to the equation.