Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[pemma]

I don't believe the franchise stated which train should be the semi-fast; but yes, I understand that MCRUA did push for the Greenbank service to be the semi-fast.

Back when the ITT was released there was a mention in an accompanying document of the off-peak daytime Chester services being the semi-fasts but MCRUA dismissed that as guidance not a mandatory requirement. Then when the actual franchise documents were released it was revealed I think 8 services between Chester and Manchester in each direction have a different maximum journey time requirement to the others. That requirement means that if the off-peak Chester services are to be all-stops dwell times have to be reduced plus the option for adding extra minutes in leaf fall season would not be available.

Only time will tell what the loadings will be; your leave half an hour earlier example is not really fair as you actually arrive 35-minutes earlier!

And why would someone from Knutsford who has an appointment in Manchester at 2pm, 10 minutes from Piccadilly want to arrive at 12:55 instead of 13:30? They're going to catch the train arriving at 13:30 and not care about the fact the previous train is 5 minutes faster. Likewise a part time worker is going to get the train closest to their working starting and finishing times regardless of the calling patterns.

If the midweek stopper trains terminated at Greenbank then they would lose my current custom and the car would be used instead.

Is that because you actually use them or would do it in protest?

Add in the Music Trains which currently pick up at all stations and the proposed service makes more sense.

The Greenbank extras won't run after the evening peak, so unless MCRUA are planning to have weekday off-peak music trains the music trains don't come in to the equation.

 

[Altfish]

Back when the ITT was released there was a mention in an accompanying document of the off-peak daytime Chester services being the semi-fasts but MCRUA dismissed that as guidance not a mandatory requirement. Then when the actual franchise documents were released it was revealed I think 8 services between Chester and Manchester in each direction have a different maximum journey time requirement to the others. That requirement means that if the off-peak Chester services are to be all-stops dwell times have to be reduced plus the option for adding extra minutes in leaf fall season would not be available.

I bow to your better knowledge

And why would someone from Knutsford who has an appointment in Manchester at 2pm, 10 minutes from Piccadilly want to arrive at 12:55 instead of 13:30? They're going to catch the train arriving at 13:30 and not care about the fact the previous train is 5 minutes faster. Likewise a part time worker is going to get the train closest to their working starting and finishing times regardless of the calling patterns.

But what about the person with the 13:30 appointment? You can always make up times when there will be no advantage BUT two trains an hour rather than one must be better.

Is that because you actually use them or would do it in protest?

I use them with my wife and dog; but living at a 'village' station the additional change and wait would swing my choice of transport in favour of the car.

The Greenbank extras won't run after the evening peak, so unless MCRUA are planning to have weekday off-peak music trains the music trains don't come in to the equation.

Fair comment, although until we see the confirmed timetable, I'm not sure we can assume that these trains won't be affected.

If the stoppers terminate at Greenbank then Navigation Rd., Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley and Lostock Gralam all get a poorer service after the introduction of the semi-fast. Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank gain whichever service is terminated at Greenbank. Why mix the gains with loses, when you can just add the gains?

 

[pemma]

But what about the person with the 13:30 appointment? You can always make up times when there will be no advantage BUT two trains an hour rather than one must be better.

I don't think you're understanding the point I'm making, I'm saying the Northwich/Knutsford/Hale/Altrincham passengers will split between the two services and not all head for the semi-fast, meaning that because the stopper will call at stations before Greenbank, as well as 4 additional stations afterwards it's likely to be much busier.

Because there will be 2 trains per hour the train will be more attractive to some people, particularly business people who can't afford to arrive in Manchester almost an hour before their appointment so currently drive instead.

If the stoppers terminate at Greenbank then Navigation Rd., Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley and Lostock Gralam all get a poorer service after the introduction of the semi-fast. Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank gain whichever service is terminated at Greenbank. Why mix the gains with loses, when you can just add the gains?

So there's no advantage to Mouldsworth, Delamere and Cuddington have faster services? Would Delamere Forest by train sound more attractive if they could market it as being 60 minutes from Manchester?

 

[Altfish]

I don't think you're understanding the point I'm making, I'm saying the Northwich/Knutsford/Hale/Altrincham passengers will split between the two services and not all head for the semi-fast, meaning that because the stopper will call at stations before Greenbank, as well as 4 additional stations afterwards it's likely to be much busier.

Because there will be 2 trains per hour the train will be more attractive to some people, particularly business people who can't afford to arrive in Manchester almost an hour before their appointment so currently drive instead.

Very few people use this line to travel from Chester to Manchester - Arriva Trains Wales offer more frequent and much faster services. Even to get to Stockport it is normally quicker via Crewe. Even so, if your passenger number analysis is correct the stopper needs to be 4-coach, the semi fast 2 - it is not rocket science.
Because it will make little difference which train you catch to Manchester or the other main stations few passengers will target one train or the other, just the most convenient one for the individual. But that is not the point of the improved service, I envisage that the doubling of services will lead to a significant increase in passenger numbers. Currently many people don't consider using the line because "...if I just miss a train I have the best part of an hour (2 on Sundays) to wait."
I don't think it will just a gain for business people who tend to travel at peak times anyway and are already provided with two trains an hour at those times, I believe it will be the leisure market in off peak that will boost trade.

So there's no advantage to Mouldsworth, Delamere and Cuddington have faster services? Would Delamere Forest by train sound more attractive if they could market it as being 60 minutes from Manchester?

So we are now getting into a discussion about village stations and which should gain/lose most. For want of an extra train the Greenbank terminators can be extended to Chester, in that case there are no losers and only winners.
Maybe Delamere will gain by being 60-minutes from Manchester but it is about 70/75 minutes now and I thought we were only talking of a 5-minute gain, so I doubt it'll be an hour.

 

[backontrack]

So we are now getting into a discussion about village stations and which should gain/lose most. For want of an extra train the Greenbank terminators can be extended to Chester, in that case there are no losers and only winners.

Perhaps not if we're to have a reopened Middlewich station, which I believe is the point of this thread...

 

[Altfish]

Perhaps not if we're to have a reopened Middlewich station, which I believe is the point of this thread...

Fair point

 

[no commute yet]

Jonnychips, it’s thought the BCR is better than 5:1 now because the 2009 report only looked at Middlewich station so didn’t include 5k potential commuters to/from Gadbrook Park. There’s a further difference too because Altrincham and Knutsford are now awake to the chance for them to go via Middlewich for Crewe to Birmingham and London trains rather than via Stockport or Chester or driving to Crewe.
I agree another study is frustrating but as I understand it this is actually the start of the GRIP process with Netwok Rail integral - and that’s totally new.

 

[backontrack]

Fair point

No worries.

Perhaps the solution is to split the stops? Mobberley & Lostock Gralam could be on the Chester service, with Ashley and Plumley being served by the Greenbank/Crewe via Middlewich trains. Or these patterns could alternate in order to give all of these four stops a service to Chester?

 

[backontrack]

Jonnychips, it’s thought the BCR is better than 5:1 now because the 2009 report only looked at Middlewich station so didn’t include 5k potential commuters to/from Gadbrook Park. There’s a further difference too because Altrincham and Knutsford are now awake to the chance for them to go via Middlewich for Crewe to Birmingham and London trains rather than via Stockport or Chester or driving to Crewe.
I agree another study is frustrating but as I understand it this is actually the start of the GRIP process with Netwok Rail integral - and that’s totally new.

Indeed, a newly-reopened line could open the doors for a London Northwestern-operated service from Birmingham to Manchester via Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Middlewich, Knutsford and Altrincham.

 

[pemma]

I thought we were only talking of a 5-minute gain

Remember the afternoon 15:49 Chester to Manchester semi-fast which would use to have until 2008 (a left over from the FNW Chester to Blackpool) that saved 2 minutes per station skipped over the all stops times so a roughly 5 minute saving for Knutsford to Manchester should be possible on the semi-fast, while a saving of over 10 minutes should be possible for Northwich to Manchester or Stockport/Altrincham to Delamere/Chester if it's the Chester that's the semi-fast.

To try and relate this to the Middlewich branch if there was a third service on the Mid-Cheshire between Crewe and Altrincham, then by the time there's freight using the line, it might be that pathing constraints decide which service is the semi-fast, rather than the operator or a passenger's group. It could well end up as the villages having a direct service to Crewe in one direction and to Chester in the other (as already happens on other routes.)

 

[LOL The Irony]

Jonnychips, it’s thought the BCR is better than 5:1 now because the 2009 report only looked at Middlewich station so didn’t include 5k potential commuters to/from Gadbrook Park. There’s a further difference too because Altrincham and Knutsford are now awake to the chance for them to go via Middlewich for Crewe to Birmingham and London trains rather than via Stockport or Chester or driving to Crewe.
I agree another study is frustrating but as I understand it this is actually the start of the GRIP process with Netwok Rail integral - and that’s totally new.

You missed our Wilmslow and Macclesfield for Knutsford residents going to London.

 

[Altfish]

No worries.

Perhaps the solution is to split the stops? Mobberley & Lostock Gralam could be on the Chester service, with Ashley and Plumley being served by the Greenbank/Crewe via Middlewich trains. Or these patterns could alternate in order to give all of these four stops a service to Chester?

It is a pity that Greenbank isn't the Manchester side of the Middlewich junction.

 

[backontrack]

It is a pity that Greenbank isn't the Manchester side of the Middlewich junction.

Yes, it is a bit - that would mean a more centrally-located Northwich station, for one thing.

 

[Altfish]

Remember the afternoon 15:49 Chester to Manchester semi-fast which would use to have until 2008 (a left over from the FNW Chester to Blackpool) that saved 2 minutes per station skipped over the all stops times so a roughly 5 minute saving for Knutsford to Manchester should be possible on the semi-fast, while a saving of over 10 minutes should be possible for Northwich to Manchester or Stockport/Altrincham to Delamere/Chester if it's the Chester that's the semi-fast.

To try and relate this to the Middlewich branch if there was a third service on the Mid-Cheshire between Crewe and Altrincham, then by the time there's freight using the line, it might be that pathing constraints decide which service is the semi-fast, rather than the operator or a passenger's group. It could well end up as the villages having a direct service to Crewe in one direction and to Chester in the other (as already happens on other routes.)

The problem is Edgeley Junction to Piccadilly, the paths are few and tightly regulated. So if a train did arrive early, it would be held before Stockport station.

I don't think anyone is expecting a 3rd train per hour unless (or until) the Airport Western Link is built.

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps not if we're to have a reopened Middlewich station, which I believe is the point of this thread...

What's the odds that, if am extra train were available, a second hourly train through to Chester (a significant demand generator) would offer a better BCR that diverting one train to serve Middlewich?

 

[pemma]

Yes, it is a bit - that would mean a more centrally-located Northwich station, for one thing.

The Middlewich Junction is just metres from the end of the platforms at Northwich station. A centrally located Northwich station would be half way along the Leftwich viaduct!

 

[pemma]

The problem is Edgeley Junction to Piccadilly, the paths are few and tightly regulated. So if a train did arrive early, it would be held before Stockport station.

I don't think anyone is expecting a 3rd train per hour unless (or until) the Airport Western Link is built.

From next month a late morning Chester service will run off-pattern between Altrincham and Northwich due to having to run behind a freight service and that's with 1tph

 

[no commute yet]

Hi, here is the link to the document about the Mid Cheshire Link Line that was presented to the Cheshire and Warrington Local Transport Board on 06.04.18. It's available on the Cheshire East website too. http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.u...eshire and Middlewich Railway Lines Study.pdf

 

[backontrack]

Hi, here is the link to the document about the Mid Cheshire Link Line that was presented to the Cheshire and Warrington Local Transport Board on 06.04.18. It's available on the Cheshire East website too. http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s62996/Item 7d Mid Cheshire and Middlewich Railway Lines Study.pdf

Excellent. Thank you for this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi, here is the link to the document about the Mid Cheshire Link Line that was presented to the Cheshire and Warrington Local Transport Board on 06.04.18. It's available on the Cheshire East website too. http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s62996/Item 7d Mid Cheshire and Middlewich Railway Lines Study.pdf

I note what was said in this document about the funding requirements for consultancy of the project. Do you envisage any difficulties from those named bodies?

 

[6Gman]

Hi, here is the link to the document about the Mid Cheshire Link Line that was presented to the Cheshire and Warrington Local Transport Board on 06.04.18. It's available on the Cheshire East website too. http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.uk/ecminutes/documents/s62996/Item 7d Mid Cheshire and Middlewich Railway Lines Study.pdf

That could be the most significant development in decades.

On the other hand it could just be kicking it into the long grass for another few years.

 

[bluenoxid]

A bit worrying that funding has not been secured for this study before this paper was submitted. A drum may need banging if stakeholders dont provide required monies

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A bit worrying that funding has not been secured for this study before this paper was submitted. A drum may need banging if stakeholders dont provide required monies

See my posting # 500.

 

[no commute yet]

I haven't heard or read anything that suggests the funding for the consultants is an issue. It seems to be a given that the consultants are about to be engaged

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I haven't heard or read anything that suggests the funding for the consultants is an issue. It seems to be a given that the consultants are about to be engaged

Then why was the funding needed to be obtained mentioned in the report?

 

[no commute yet]

I don't know but I'll guess at it being a signal the report originators are sending round a cap

 

[no commute yet]

We were mentioned in the House of Commons last Thursday: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/32239dd3-409c-4e11-a7f2-4e7fb2060f0e?in=10:32:07&out=10:32:48

 

[pemma]

Looks like the line might reopen in around 15 years time:

Meanwhile, Cheshire East Council’s local transport plan – which is currently out for consultation – says Network Rail has identified a need to deliver the service after HS2, which is due to be completed in 2033.

http://www.middlewichguardian.co.uk...ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[LOL The Irony]

Looks like the line might reopen in around 15 years time:



http://www.middlewichguardian.co.uk...ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Well that sucks.

 

[Eccles1983]

Kicked well and truely into the long grass.

Ah well.