Can I use this route?

[FenMan]

I'm taking a day trip to Bedford tomorrow from my home station, travelling via London.

From my home station to London there are various "sensible" route options, which can be completely different. All the various routes are permitted for most journeys beyond London, but not always.

For the journey to Bedford, NRE only offers a route to London that I do not want to use, so I added a via point to get the preferred itinerary.

Now here's the thing, as Robert Peston is fond of saying:-

NRE reports that no return tickets are available via my preferred route i.e. it is not permitted.

But, when I repeat the query (including the preferred via point) as a single journey, NRE happily reports I can make the journey using one ticket (the Anytime Single). I checked BRFares and it is the correct price, so NRE is not adding two Single tickets together.

So, can I buy a day return ticket and travel on my preferred route?

 

[Romilly]

I'm taking a day trip to Bedford tomorrow from my home station, travelling via London.

From my home station to London there are various "sensible" route options, which can be completely different. All the various routes are permitted for most journeys beyond London, but not always.

For the journey to Bedford, NRE only offers a route to London that I do not want to use, so I added a via point to get the preferred itinerary.

Now here's the thing, as Robert Peston is fond of saying:-

NRE reports that no return tickets are available via my preferred route i.e. it is not permitted.

But, when I repeat the query (including the preferred via point) as a single journey, NRE happily reports I can make the journey using one ticket (the Anytime Single). I checked BRFares and it is the correct price, so NRE is not adding two Single tickets together.

So, can I buy a day return ticket and travel on my preferred route?

Sometimes you get the preferred route in one direction only because the timings mean that, in one direction, a journey via your preferred route would be much slower. Try using the Advanced options on the NRE journey planner to alter the time allowed for changes of train, or the time allowed to cross London. Another possibility is that you are hitting time restrictions, although that's much less likely on a Saturday. A final possibility is that, if the problem is with the return journey and you are travelling back late in the day, you might be hitting the start of overnight engineering works: try a return time earlier in the day (or use the planner to test the route on a weekday).

 

[FenMan]

Sometimes you get the preferred route in one direction only because the timings mean that, in one direction, a journey via your preferred route would be much slower. Try using the Advanced options on the NRE journey planner to alter the time allowed for changes of train, or the time allowed to cross London. Another possibility is that you are hitting time restrictions, although that's much less likely on a Saturday. A final possibility is that, if the problem is with the return journey and you are travelling back late in the day, you might be hitting the start of overnight engineering works: try a return time earlier in the day (or use the planner to test the route on a weekday).

When querying the return journey via my preferred route NRE happily shows the trains I want to use, but refuses to price them.

My preferred route to London is faster and more frequent than the alternatives.

 

[John @ home]

I fear you'll have to tell us the name of the origin station and of the via point if you want comprehensive advice. Send a PM to one of the Fares Advisors if you don't want to reveal this on the public forum.

 

[bb21]

This isn't even going to reveal a loophole so why the stations are kept secret is anyone's guess.

Saying what the stations are means less deciphering of all the gobbledegook.

 

[FenMan]

This isn't even going to reveal a loophole so why the stations are kept secret is anyone's guess.

Saying what the stations are means less deciphering of all the gobbledegook.

The journey is Blackwater - Bedford.

NRE only offers itineraries via (1) Guildford and (2) Farnborough North - walk - Farnborough Main.

I prefer to travel via Reading into Paddington, but this route is disallowed by NRE unless I query it as a single journey rather than a return.

Many thanks to John@Home, who confirms the route via Reading IS valid, but there is still the issue of why NRE is being inconsistent about this.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I prefer to travel via Reading into Paddington, but this route is disallowed by NRE unless I query it as a single journey rather than a return.

The reason is that Wokingham passes the fares check as an origin routeing point for a Blackwater to Bedford journey, but not as a destination routeing point for a Bedford to Blackwater journey. See attached screenshots from the routeing point calculator at http://data.atoc.org/rp_calc

I have never seen this before, but it's not too surprising really, as there are plenty of journeys in the London & South-east area in particular where the fares for a journey are different prices in either direction, which is what has caused the anomaly here.

 

[FenMan]

That's interesting. Surely if a route passes in one direction the logic should permit return journeys by that route.

To add to the anomaly, Blackwater - Wokingham - Waterloo is a permitted route for a return ticket to Bedford according to RailEasy (it's difficult to replicate this on NRE, as choosing via Wokingham brings up Wokingham - Clapham Junction - West Hampstead/Thameslink instead, which presumably qualifies as being the shortest route).

 

[najaB]

That's interesting. Surely if a route passes in one direction the logic should permit return journeys by that route.

A member since 2011 and you're still trying to use logic where fares are concerned!

 

[Paul Kelly]

That's interesting. Surely if a route passes in one direction the logic should permit return journeys by that route.

To be fair, the routeing guide does actually say you should compare the fares for the destination routeing point in the other direction, but I think most people have always just assumed that was a typo and certainly booking engines do it the other way round. But I think, on that technicality, the route is actually permitted. Very strange!

To add to the anomaly, Blackwater - Wokingham - Waterloo is a permitted route for a return ticket to Bedford according to RailEasy (it's difficult to replicate this on NRE, as choosing via Wokingham brings up Wokingham - Clapham Junction - West Hampstead/Thameslink instead, which presumably qualifies as being the shortest route).

The shortest route is actually via Guildford, Effingham Junction and Surbiton, but via Wokingham and Staines is barely a quarter of a mile longer - so yes, that qualifies as a permitted route without any need to do the fares check.

 

[furlong]

The original routeing guide was reasonably clear in its implication that for a return journey you do the exercise (to select routeing points) once, based on the origin and destination of the ticket i.e. the same envelope of mapped routes (involving fares checks) applies in both directions. Although the use of return fares in comparisons has been removed (even though it has reverted to using NFM64 fares) I can't spot anything to indicate that the principle of working out the routeing points (and routes) only once for a return ticket has been changed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

For the sake of completeness, I've just undertaken a fares check using both current and NFM64 fares. Results are as follows:

A Blackwater - Bedford Stations Anytime Day Single (SDS) is currently £31.70, whereas that in the reverse direction is £32.20.

In NFM64, there was a Cheap Day Single (CDS) for £18.00 and a Standard Day Single (SDS) for £21.60, with fares the same in both directions.

Blackwater has Guildford and Wokingham as Routeing Points, and Bedford is a Routeing Point.

Guildford - Bedford Stations SDS is £34.60, meaning it's not an appropriate Routeing Point for Blackwater using current fares. In NFM64, the CDS was £17.30 and the SDS was £20.40, meaning it is an appropriate RP if you use NFM64 fares!

Wokingham - Bedford Stations SDS is £32.70, again meaning it's not an appropriate RP if you use current fares. Again, however, NFM64 shows a CDS for £17.60 and an SDS for £22.30, meaning it is appropriate...but only Off-Peak!

To summarise:

If you (or a journey planner) use current fares, only the shortest route is permitted, but using NFM64 fares, you can use the shortest route to Guildford or Wokingham, then permitted routes between either and Bedford.

 

[FenMan]

Thanks everyone. There are plenty of other destinations beyond London that throw up the same issue. So far as I can see, a lot of the confusion started when the Farnborough Group (Blackwater was a member) was removed, so Blackwater fares now need to be compared with those from Guildford and Wokingham. I'm unsure if the Farnborough Group existed when NFM 64 fares were current.

Permitted routes from North Down Line stations adjacent to Blackwater that weren't members of the Farnborough Group - Sandhurst and North Camp - don't suffer from these routeing anomalies.

This can be demonstrated by entering North Camp or Sandhurst to Bedford into NRE with forced via points of either Guildford or Reading. NRE reports that both routes to London are permitted.