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Cardiff - Swansea Electrification Cancelled!

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Elecman

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But surely if no feeder station is included that means no power west of Cardiff to Swansea should an isolation be required say at Bridgend - potentially impacting on the maintenance time for the OLE going forward.

No you Have section isolators to cut down the amount of OLE isolated for each maintenance
 
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Class 170101

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No you Have section isolators to cut down the amount of OLE isolated for each maintenance

Correct but if the only supply is at Cardiff surely anything to the west of the isolated section that is being worked on then the rest is isolated by default?
 
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Class 170101

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Not if they wire it as an AT System. As that in effect has a bypassing Feeder.

I am sorry but that still doesn't make sense to me, because the AT system must still be isolated at the site of work for the workforce as if the the feed is only from the east then anything west of the worksite must be without an electricial supply ie a no feed situation.
 

Class 170101

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If that means you still have live wires in the overhead, then not much use for On Track Plant and men working.

My thoughts exactly, if it was a cable in troughing like the extension lead for Stalybridge feeder station now that would be a different matter.
 

Cardiff123

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Can the electrification methods being used by Keilos Amey on the Valley lines (e.g. discontinuous electrification, with trains running on batteries under bridges and other unelectrified sections) be applied to Cardiff - Swansea to bring the costs down? Is this what the article is advocating?
 

Class 170101

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Just need a TSS Track Sectioning Station surely.

But surely its still dead west of any point where OLE work is taking place TSS AT system as there is no feeder station proposed near to Swansea as far as I can see from what I have read,
 

themiller

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Can the electrification methods being used by Keilos Amey on the Valley lines (e.g. discontinuous electrification, with trains running on batteries under bridges and other unelectrified sections) be applied to Cardiff - Swansea to bring the costs down? Is this what the article is advocating?
I believe the gist is that the Cardiff - Swansea is a simpler job because of the lack of major junctions such as Reading and that the undersides of bridges can be insulated in some cases to avoid raising them. Along with the fact that there is no need for an electrical sub-station because it'll be fed from the one at Cardiff which is already paid for, this would lead to a cheaper 'per mile' cost for wiring.
 

edwin_m

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If there is no feeder station then if part of the line needed isolating everything west of that would indeed be dead - unless an "extension lead" was included but that would cost money.

But does it matter? If part of the line was isolated then there probably wouldn't be any service running anyway, and as all the trains are now bi-mode then empty moves to/from and within Swansea depot could be on diesel.
 

Dai Corner

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I believe the gist is that the Cardiff - Swansea is a simpler job because of the lack of major junctions such as Reading and that the undersides of bridges can be insulated in some cases to avoid raising them. Along with the fact that there is no need for an electrical sub-station because it'll be fed from the one at Cardiff which is already paid for, this would lead to a cheaper 'per mile' cost for wiring.

Lower line speeds could allow lighter, cheaper construction too. I don't think there's anything above 90mph, certainly no 125mph.
 

Rhydgaled

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But surely if no feeder station is included that means no power west of Cardiff to Swansea should an isolation be required say at Bridgend - potentially impacting on the maintenance time for the OLE going forward.
Does new the Hitachi depot in Swansea (which ironically is home to what were probably the first OHLE masts errected in Wales) have a feeder station? If not, was one planned? Otherwise, as you suggest, an isolation would presumably have cut off everything west of the isolation point.

Can the electrification methods being used by Keilos Amey on the Valley lines (e.g. discontinuous electrification, with trains running on batteries under bridges and other unelectrified sections) be applied to Cardiff - Swansea to bring the costs down? Is this what the article is advocating?
The article mentions that, but also the bridge just west of Cardiff Central where the main line passes under the line to Queen Street. At the latter, the OHLE (I believe) is (or will be) live but the underside of the bridge is insulated to avoid rebuilding the bridge. Personally I think that approach should be used, rather than requiring all electric trains on the Cardiff-Swansea route to have a battery mode.

Lower line speeds could allow lighter, cheaper construction too. I don't think there's anything above 90mph, certainly no 125mph.
I think there is a short section with a 100mph HST differential linespeed (Pyle station is on that section I believe). If I recall correctly, that is the only section of track in south Wales above 90mph. However, the linespeed through Cardiff Central is much less than that and Network Rail's planning application for OHLE through the station showed that they planned to use "extra large" masts I believe.

Most of the route between Cardiff and Bridgend is only 75mph; they could do with improving that and putting in some four-track sections to allow fasts to overtake stoppers before putting wires up between Cardiff and Bridgend.
 

Envoy

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It would be pretty difficult to 4 track much of the Cardiff to Bridgend section. Perhaps the best solution would be to take a short cut - roughly following the line of the M4 between J34 at Miskin & J35 at Pencoed. Therefore, the present section via Pontyclun, Llanharan etc. would be used by freight trains and local stoppers. If they were to build a new fast section roughly following the M4, they had better protect the land pronto as I understand that much of this area is down for housing development. (It looks like the Welsh Government have a policy of building all along the M4).
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/plans-thousands-new-homes-former-14458617

See Map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5147004,-3.4232083,13.7z
 
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Envoy

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Being as Keolis are ordering new trains for the Manchester to west Wales service, if these trains were to be bi-mode, I wonder if that would help swing the case for Cardiff to Swansea electrification? Crewe to Manchester is already electrified so with Newport to Swansea electrified, a bi-mode option would surely be a viable option? (You could also throw in an all electric stopping service on the main line - possibly linking Swansea with Bath). The Class 800’s on the London run would also be able to run more efficiently using electric traction and this could well cut maintenance costs with Hitachi.
 

Dai Corner

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Being as Keolis are ordering new trains for the Manchester to west Wales service, if these trains were to be bi-mode, I wonder if that would help swing the case for Cardiff to Swansea electrification? Crewe to Manchester is already electrified so with Newport to Swansea electrified, a bi-mode option would surely be a viable option? (You could also throw in an all electric stopping service on the main line - possibly linking Swansea with Bath). The Class 800’s on the London run would also be able to run more efficiently using electric traction and this could well cut maintenance costs with Hitachi.

It would certainly help, but would entail co-operation between the Welsh and U.K. Governments. IIRC they were barely on speaking terms on transport matters at the time Cardiff-Swansea electrification was cancelled. I live in hope that common sense will prevail one day!
 

krus_aragon

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If the Cardiff-Swansea wires hadn't been cancelled, I think it's likely bi-modes would have been ordered. But with nothing other than Cardiff-Newport and Crewe-Manchester expected to see wires in the next 10-15 years (say), I quite understand why the order made was for DMUs.
 

Envoy

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It would be a great pity if the order for the DMU’s goes through and then the UK government decide to electrify Cardiff to Swansea and we have a new fleet of trains that can’t use the overhead wires.
 

krus_aragon

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It would be a great pity if the order for the DMU’s goes through and then the UK government decide to electrify Cardiff to Swansea and we have a new fleet of trains that can’t use the overhead wires.
If we assume that we'd be waiting at least a decade before Swansea was wired, it needn't be such a hardship. One could buy a new set of bi-modes for Manchester-Carmarthen/Milford, and use the spare DMUs either to cascade the microfleet of 170s from West Wales & Heart of Wales, of for general strengthening of DMU services elsewhere in North and Mid Wales.

Roughly twelve diagrams plus spares are needed for a Manchester-Carmarthen hourly service, and there will be 12 170s coming from Anglia early in the franchise. The Swansea-Manchester portions will have an extra unit for First class accommodation: the handful of First Class units could be allocated to the non-loco-hauled Holyhead-Cardiff services, or declassified and used wherever needed.

If by some miracle we see Cardiff-Swansea and the North Wales Coast wired up in the next decade, then we will certainly have too many DMUs knocking about. But I don't see that happening any time soon...
 
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