Only a through route from Bangor to Porthmadog would make sense. Bangor to Canaerfon I would imagine has little business case. I could be wrong though!
I've read in the past (on this forum if I recall correctly) that Arriva Trains Wales proposed re-openning Bangor-Caernarfon in the early stages of bidding for the current franchise. So Arriva must have thought there was a decent case for doing it, and we could have had it by now if the powers-that-be hadn't then decided Wales & Borders would be a no-growth franchise. In my opinion, given that comment about ATW and assuming the next franchise is at least 7yrs long I really think the new franchise should include Bangor-Caernarfon re-openning.
I don't agree that South Wales has the monopoly on short, viable, potential re-openings. Bangor-Caernarfon and Bangor-Llangefni both qualify in my book.
I don't understand all the talk about re-openning Bangor-Llangefni, I can't see why you would do that and not continue all the way to Amlwch. Since there is mothballed track still in place the reinstatement costs per mile must be much lower than a route that has been ripped-up and sold-off, so the extra cost of going all the way would be easier to justify with another 2-4 stations to put much more of Anglesey close to a station.
Bangor-Caernarfon is the most obvious re-openning though I think.
But Caernarfon already has an established rail attraction that caters for the tourists.
I think he's suggesting a means of getting them there by other means than private car rather than providing a nice ride into the mountains once they've arrived.
Getting tourists there by public transport would be great. That makes me wonder, though, how many of the visitors to this part of north Wales will want to go up Snowdon. I still think Bangor-Caernarfon should be the first phase, but will tourists leave their car at home for a bus from Caernarfon to Llanberis? Apart from a few 'static' caravans, which presumably can be moved, it doesn't look like there is much in the way of the old railway from Caernarfon until you reach Llyn Padarn. From there, the Llanberis Lake Railway is in the way. Is there enough tourisim to Llanberis to justify a rail link? And would it be worth losing the Llanberis Lake Railway, or is the formation wide enough for both?
In Caernarfon ... a branch from Bangor ...
A service on the branch could extend beyond Bangor picking up the local calls further along the coast, more useful for more people than those trains crossing over the Menai to Anglesey.
Interesting idea. The service pattern I have in mind for the north Wales coast is something like this:
- 0.5tph Llandudno - Holyhead all stations
- 1tph Chester* - Holyhead calling at Fflint, Rhyl, Llandudno Junc. and Bangor
- 1tph Chester* - Caernarfon calling at Fflint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junc., Bangor and Y Felinheli, with additional calls at Conwy and Shotton in some hours
- 1tph Chester* - Llandudno calling at all stations (except perhaps Deganwy, which would be served by the Llandudno-Holyhead and Conwy valley trains, in some hours) off-peak (possibly ommitting Abergelle & Pensarn and Shotton in the peaks as these would be served by the following)
- Peak-extra Manchester-Llandudno all-stations (an extension of the Manchester-Chester service which will be a Northern Connect off-peak and only run by Wales & Borders in the peaks).
* Services marked as coming from Chester run through to/from Manchester, Birmingham (via Crewe) or Liverpool, except for three per day each-way on the Holyhead service which would run to/from Cardiff (calling at Wrexham General, Shrewsbury and Newport only). What pairings does anyone think would be optimal? Holyhead-Manchester? Liverpool-Caernarfon? Birmingham-Caernarfon? Liverpool-Llandudno?
A recast North Wales timetable might include an hourly Llandudno-Caernarfon (connecting off a Manchester - Llandudno at the Junction perhaps). By picking up the Conwy, Pen and Ll'fechan stops this could allow the Holyhead trains to be speeded up?
One reason I have the Llandudno-Bangor stopper continuing to Holyhead rather than Caernarfon is that something is needed to serve the request stops on Anglesey, whereas the Caernarfon branch would presumably only have two stations which would be served by all services on the branch, with no need for a mix of fast and slow services.
The benefits of opening Aber - Camarthen is not just to those within its immediate vicinity It will also benefit large parts of Montgomeryshire & Gwynedd who wish to travel to Swansea (which is the main reason I and many would like this line built) and Pembrokeshire. the Bus services are not adequate certainly beyond Camarthen how many communities does the Bus serve to connect you with a Paddington Train?and.
If it's run at a reasonable speed it could even be beneficial to passengers at Shrewsbury if it is quicker journey than going via Cardiff.
I don't see how Gwynedd comes into it. At best Porthmadog to Swansea via Carmarthen would require a change of train at Dovey Junction, and possibly one at Aberystwyth as well (a Birmingham to Cardiff service via Aberystwyth and Carmarthen might be possible, but could be quite confusing to passengers boarding at Birmingham and Shrewsbury).
As I've already posted, there is absolutely no point reopening Carmarthen-Aberystwyth along the former alignment, it would simply be too slow to be competitive. IF you could build it to do Aberystwyth-Carmarthen in 1hr 20min or less AND upgrade Carmarthen-Cardiff to do it in 70 minutes (calling at only Llanelli, a new Morriston Parkway station and Port Talbot Parkway) then Aberystwyth to Paddington with one change could perhaps be done in a similar time to Aberystwyth-Euston (changing at Birmingham) and Aberystwyth to south-west England might even be quicker than via Shrewsbury. But that's a tall order, I wonder how much you'd have to add to the 700 odd million to get CMN-AYW down to 1hr 20? I'd like to see the Welsh Government make a real effort with TrawsCymru (not just white and green paint and a few stickers on the same old service) and see what can be acheived with buses before deciding whether a railway is really needed. A bus will never do it in 1hr 20mins, but if the train is going to be slower than driving anyway does it matter that the bus is slower than a train?
If nobody sees a point in re-opening this line then the same thing could be said about keeping the Heart Of Wales that serves a similar purpose. Wouldn't Buses be better than the Train along it's route?
For the kind of service provided at the moment, a bus might be more suitable than a train for the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL). One thing about the HOWL though is that it is politically very difficult to cut a train service, sadly the same is apparently not true of buses (if the HOWL service had been replaced by buses in the Beeching era, I doubt the buses would have survived to this day). That needs to change, we need our buses. Personally though, I think the HOWL has a fair bit of potential if some limited-stop services were added to the timetable alongside the current services.
Good questions. The trackbed through Caernarfon is currently occupied by the Welsh Highland Railway, so a parkway-type station might be needed on the edge of town on an alternative route. Either that or kick the WHR out which won't be happening, fortunately.
The WHR already has a flat-crossing with the Cambrian Coast Line, which presumably requires interlocking with Network Rail signalling. Couldn't the same could be done at Caernarfon to allow a mixed-guage route (with the WHR tracks sitting between standard guage rails)?
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