Caught using wrong railcard and “Doughnutting” in greateranglia

[Benkruce99]

Hi all,

First time poster here. For the last 2-3 weeks or so I have been buying rail tickets with a 16-17 railcard, and buying from a closer station than the station I departed from, mostly as a result of the increase in cost of living. I was extremely naive in thinking what I was doing wasn’t that severe, until last week when I was caught out. I was interviewed under caution by a plain clothed officer, where he saw that the ticket I purchased was using a 16-17 railcard. I was totally upfront and transparent with him and when he said they would investigate my previous journeys, I came clean about how long I had been doing this. The conversation was very much matter of fact and I complied as much as possible. The officer seemed calm and the conversation was generally productive. I am now waiting on a letter regarding potential prosecution. This was my first time doing anything like this, but I’m worried because it has been multiple journeys I will get the book thrown at me. Has anyone had a similar experience with greateranglia and does anyone have any indication of how likely an out of court settlement can be reached?

Thanks everyone, I feel extremely stupid for this

 

[Haywain]

This was my first time doing anything like this, but I’m worried because it has been multiple journeys I will get the book thrown at me. Has anyone had a similar experience with greateranglia and does anyone have any indication of how likely an out of court settlement can be reached?

Lots of people will be along with detailed advice on this matter but from what we see here the book, if thrown, isn't the weightiest tome and there is a very good prospect of you being able to reach a settlement. However, you will need to be aware that the settlement will seek to recover much or all of the fares you have avoided without necessarily taking into account what you have paid. There will also be the train company's costs on top, so you can expect the starting line to be in the region of £100, and then add the fares - if you want to make a calculation of the fares, look at the journey you have made and check the cost of an Anytime (Day) Single and multiply that by the number of journeys you have made.

You will receive a letter from GA in the next few weeks, but until that there really isn't that much you can do.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Plain clothes is rare on here, is it not? And denotes that that the suspect may have been investigated and followed for whatever reason?

 

[Benkruce99]

Plain clothes is rare on here, is it not? And denotes that that the suspect may have been investigated and followed for whatever reason?

I should clarify, I was initially caught out by a greateranglia employee at the gates who then Reffered me to the officer

 

[spag23]

Not a major point, but can the OP clarify whether they actually held a16-17 Railcard.

 

[Benkruce99]

Not a major point, but can the OP clarify whether they actually held a16-17 Railcard.

I do not hold a 16-17 railcard

 

[AlterEgo]

OP, how have you been purchasing your tickets? Online, using a booking site? And have you been doing so from an account registered to you?

 

[Benkruce99]

OP, how have you been purchasing your tickets? Online, using a booking site? And have you been doing so from an account registered to you?

Using greateranglia website and occasionally trainline linked to my email address (which I gave to the interviewing officer). I am now concerned I was too honest when being interviewed

 

[AlterEgo]

Using greateranglia website and occasionally trainline linked to my email address (which I gave to the interviewing officer). I am now concerned I was too honest when being interviewed

If those accounts are both linked to you then they will find the journeys anyway, so the latter part of your sentence is moot.

Best to sit tight and wait for their letter, and come back to us once it does eventually arrive.

 

[Gloster]

Doughnutting is when you buy a ticket for a short distance from your starting station to a nearby station and a second ticket from a station near your destination to your destination, but have no ticket for the section inbetween. (You travel A to Z, but only buy tickets A to B and Y to Z, but have nothing to cover B to Y.) Is this what you did?

If you just bought a ticket from A to B or just a ticket from Y to Z, but no other ticket for your journey from A to Z, that is short faring.

Please note: I am not one of the forum’s experts.

 

[Benkruce99]

Thanks for the clarification. It appears I Short ticketed. I am desperately trying to find people who have had been in similar situations with greater anglia and what the outcome was

 

[SeaKing]

If you are entitled to a Railcard i would buy ASAP at least it would be something in your favour.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Thanks for the clarification. It appears I Short ticketed. I am desperately trying to find people who have had been in similar situations with greater anglia and what the outcome was

This person managed to get a settlement from GA after short-faring over 6 months:

Caught at Stratford

Hi all, Hoping for some help/advice based on a situation I am deeply regretful of. For the last 6 months on occasion I’ve been buying short tickets or not at all for a commute with Greater Anglia from Rayleigh into Strarford whereby I would tap in for the tube and continue my journey. The...

www.railforums.co.uk

This person also obtained a settlement from GA in an ongoing situation somewhat analogous to yours:

Help please! Letter from Greater Anglia Prosecutions Unit

I received a letter from the Greater Anglia Prosecutions Unit saying that I was questioned about the payment of a rail fare, all the evidence is being considered and that I can reply to the letter if I wish by writing on the back of it with any further comments about the incident. I recently...

www.railforums.co.uk

A settlement was obtained here after short-faring, albeit only once:

Fare Evasion + ADHD

Hi all, A few weeks ago before making a trip from Colchester to Liverpool St, I totally forgot that I had to book the tickets and when I finally remembered to check the price increase had kicked in. In a panic I booked a cheaper ticket that only covered a part of the journey (Stratford to...

www.railforums.co.uk

This person was able to settle after being caught in First Class on a standard ticket:

Made a genuine error - Now I face a criminal record

Hi All, I have been looking through a lot of other requests for advice, but still feel very unsure of where I stand and what I should do next. I live in Hertford and commute regularly to Liverpool St. from Hertford East station. I have been travelling via this route for the last 2 years...

www.railforums.co.uk

Settlement obtained when a ticket was not held for the first part of a journey:

Stopped in Stratford with no ticket

I'm strating to get really stressed out and worried about this penalty thing, I have no idea whats going on. I just got a letter theough from abelio greater anglia prosecutions unit asking for my details and it says things like court. I just have no idea really. I was stopped it stratford...

www.railforums.co.uk

Settlement obtained when someone allegedly altered a carnet ticket:

Carnet problem - solicitor recommendation and any other comments?

Can anyone recommend a solicitor to deal with a case of alleged fare evasion, preferably one based in Cambridge (but more important to have someone suitably qualified than someone right on the spot)? It is not yet clear to me whether I need one or not but it would be good to have some ideas in...

www.railforums.co.uk

In fact, I couldn’t find any instance of GA deciding to proceed to prosecution (not that everyone comes back to the forum to tell us of their outcome, of course).

While nothing is guaranteed, I’d probably be prepared to put money on you obtaining a settlement, provided that you engage correctly with the process and there isn’t more to your situation than what you’ve told us.

I hope this has been of some small comfort to you.

 

[Benkruce99]

This person managed to get a settlement from GA after short-faring over 6 months:

Caught at Stratford

Hi all, Hoping for some help/advice based on a situation I am deeply regretful of. For the last 6 months on occasion I’ve been buying short tickets or not at all for a commute with Greater Anglia from Rayleigh into Strarford whereby I would tap in for the tube and continue my journey. The...

www.railforums.co.uk

This person also obtained a settlement from GA in an ongoing situation somewhat analogous to yours:

Help please! Letter from Greater Anglia Prosecutions Unit

I received a letter from the Greater Anglia Prosecutions Unit saying that I was questioned about the payment of a rail fare, all the evidence is being considered and that I can reply to the letter if I wish by writing on the back of it with any further comments about the incident. I recently...

www.railforums.co.uk

A settlement was obtained here after short-faring, albeit only once:

Fare Evasion + ADHD

Hi all, A few weeks ago before making a trip from Colchester to Liverpool St, I totally forgot that I had to book the tickets and when I finally remembered to check the price increase had kicked in. In a panic I booked a cheaper ticket that only covered a part of the journey (Stratford to...

www.railforums.co.uk

This person was able to settle after being caught in First Class on a standard ticket:

Made a genuine error - Now I face a criminal record

Hi All, I have been looking through a lot of other requests for advice, but still feel very unsure of where I stand and what I should do next. I live in Hertford and commute regularly to Liverpool St. from Hertford East station. I have been travelling via this route for the last 2 years...

www.railforums.co.uk

Settlement obtained when a ticket was not held for the first part of a journey:

Stopped in Stratford with no ticket

I'm strating to get really stressed out and worried about this penalty thing, I have no idea whats going on. I just got a letter theough from abelio greater anglia prosecutions unit asking for my details and it says things like court. I just have no idea really. I was stopped it stratford...

www.railforums.co.uk

Settlement obtained when someone allegedly altered a carnet ticket:

Carnet problem - solicitor recommendation and any other comments?

Can anyone recommend a solicitor to deal with a case of alleged fare evasion, preferably one based in Cambridge (but more important to have someone suitably qualified than someone right on the spot)? It is not yet clear to me whether I need one or not but it would be good to have some ideas in...

www.railforums.co.uk

In fact, I couldn’t find any instance of GA deciding to proceed to prosecution (not that everyone comes back to the forum to tell us of their outcome, of course).

While nothing is guaranteed, I’d probably be prepared to put money on you obtaining a settlement, provided that you engage correctly with the process and there isn’t more to your situation than what you’ve told us.

I hope this has been of some small comfort to you.

Thank you. I really appreciate your comment. I’ll keep the thread updated when I receive my letter. Thanks again.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We've seen several similar cases to this recently in this section of the forum.

As for what will happen you will receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and will ask for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before, and it appears from what you have said that you have potentially incriinated yourself more than you needed to when you were questioned at the time you were caught. The train company will be able to search your purchase history through both Greater Anglia and Trainline so while this will make a settlement harder and potentially more expensive on balance obtaining one is still the likely outcome.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Benkruce99]

Hi everyone. I have received my letter two months after being spoken to by a greater anglia officer regarding short faring and using an incorrect railcard. Unfortunately I was back home for Christmas and the letter arrived the day I left. The date on the letter is 20th December and the letter states that I should reply within 7 days. Obviously I am in a huge panic now. I have attached the letter . Will they even respond to me since it has been more than 7 days?? can someone help me draft my response? Appreciate it!

 

[antharro]

I'm sure the forum experts will be along soon enough to reply. I would suggest (tho happy to be overruled by them) that your next course of action would be to write back to them explaining your circumstances and asking for the clock to be reset. There is no guarantee that they will honour this request and your case may already have been passed to the prosecution team, but unless the prosecution team have written to you then it doesn't hurt to ask.

However, without knowing the details of your case it is difficult to provide any other more appropriate information; I would advise that you read this pinned post from this forum and provide the requested information.

 

[ModernRailways]

Hi everyone. I have received my letter two months after being spoken to by a greater anglia officer regarding short faring and using an incorrect railcard. Unfortunately I was back home for Christmas and the letter arrived the day I left. The date on the letter is 20th December and the letter states that I should reply within 7 days. Obviously I am in a huge panic now. I have attached the letter . Will they even respond to me since it has been more than 7 days?? can someone help me draft my response? Appreciate it!

With postal delays over Christmas it would be quite easy for it to have arrived outside of that 7 day window either way especially if it was sent on the 20th. Anecdotally, I received a Christmas card on Tuesday (3rd Jan) that a friend sent back on the 12th Dec and that’s up here in Newcastle where it’s definitely not as back logged as some other areas.

I’d reply to them, apologise for the delay in response and advise you’ve only just received the letter. In response outline your side, offer a settlement if you wish too, but I would get this done ASAP, within the next 24 hours for definite. Take a look at the pinned post and some other similar threads, I’m sure one the resident experts can point you a bit more in the right direction.

 

[Hadders]

Reply to them today and send it Royal Mail Special Delivery. This will guarantee it arrives tomorrow. In your letter explain that you have only just received the letter. Post has been awful at the moment (I received a letter yesterday that was posted 1st class on the 21st December) which Greater Anglia will be aware of so there should be some leeway.

When you have done this it might be worth calling them to make them aware, but I wouldn't let this delay your reply to them in writing.

 

[Class800]

Ordinarily in many offices 24 Dec to 3 Jan is a closure period - surprised this hasn't applied here. I would expect that companies would be more lenient about timeliness around Christmas but cannot guarantee

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Reply to them today and send it Royal Mail Special Delivery. This will guarantee it arrives tomorrow.

Tomorrow is a Saturday. Still possible to do this but Royal Mail's Saturday Guaranteed Special Delivery service is much more expensive than on a weekday.

 

[jupiter]

Given the strikes and delivery delays I don’t think they have much choice but to be lenient. You can’t respond to a letter that hasn’t yet been delivered.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Reply to them today and send it Royal Mail Special Delivery. This will guarantee it arrives tomorrow. In your letter explain that you have only just received the letter. Post has been awful at the moment (I received a letter yesterday that was posted 1st class on the 21st December) which Greater Anglia will be aware of so there should be some leeway.

When you have done this it might be worth calling them to make them aware, but I wouldn't let this delay your reply to them in writing.

Because you are outside the reply time that Greater Anglia gave you, you need to do everything you can to get in touch and so encourage them to let you have extra time.

So given that there’s an email address given, I think you should also send an email - even if all you say there is that your detailed response is on its way.

 

[Benkruce99]

Because you are outside the reply time that Greater Anglia gave you, you need to do everything you can to get in touch and so encourage them to let you have extra time.

So given that there’s an email address given, I think you should also send an email - even if all you say there is that your detailed response is on its way.

Should I not just include my detailed response in the email?

Reply to them today and send it Royal Mail Special Delivery. This will guarantee it arrives tomorrow. In your letter explain that you have only just received the letter. Post has been awful at the moment (I received a letter yesterday that was posted 1st class on the 21st December) which Greater Anglia will be aware of so there should be some leeway.

When you have done this it might be worth calling them to make them aware, but I wouldn't let this delay your reply to them in writing.

Is a written letter necessary? Can I include my detailed response in an email and send it to the address provided?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Should I not just include my detailed response in the email?

I wouldn't like to go against @Hadders ' advice!

But if you have your detailed reply ready to go, then emailing it makes sense. But if you need time to make your detailed reply, then I think you should send an email today, explaining why your detailed reply will be late - and saying when you will send it.

I work in compliance for a non-railway organisation, and there are few things more annoying (and so unlikely to get my sympathy) than being told that I will get a reply, but not when! In your case, the railway will want to bring things to an end sooner rather than later and while they might agree to a little extra time they won't let you have forever.

 

[WesternLancer]

Should I not just include my detailed response in the email?


Is a written letter necessary? Can I include my detailed response in an email and send it to the address provided?

Send the same response by e-mail as you can then do in the letter (ie send an e-mail with all the things you wish to say, then print off the e-mail in letter format and post it Special Delivery - so it gets there monday not pay the extra for Saturday) - that way you have done what they have asked (sent a letter with a signature on it) as well as got a reply to them ASAP (sent the same wording by e-mail), which may help prevent it being escalated to prosecution team.

EDIT - or do exactly as I see Haywain has posted on post #27 which I agree makes good sense

 

[Haywain]

Should I not just include my detailed response in the email?

Prepare your letter and send it as an attachment to an email. This is an acceptable way of dealing with a slightly more formal matter. You can then post the letter on using ordinary postal service as you won't have the same concern about when it arrives.

 

[StarCrossing]

Their letter to you seems to invite you to respond by email rather than post. Unless I'm missing something (always possible!), I suggest doing exactly that.

 

[skyhigh]

Their letter to you seems to invite you to respond by email rather than post. Unless I'm missing something (always possible!), I suggest doing exactly that.

Given the delay -

The date on the letter is 20th December and the letter states that I should reply within 7 days.

It seems entirely wise to reply by email and post as @Haywain says.

 

[StarCrossing]

Given the delay -

It seems entirely wise to reply by email and post as @Haywain says.

Sorry, but I'm still not following. What would be the advantage of replying by post as well as email? Email is faster than post and the contact details in the letter are an email address, suggesting that this is how they'd like the OP to respond.