Changes to delay replay

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FenMan

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I haven't been able to find a topic on here that covers this announcement by the Rail Minister:-

Rail passengers to be able to claim payouts for all late trains after compensation shake-up

Commuters will be able to claim compensation if their trains are just a few minutes late under new rules announced by the government.

The strengthened rules, to be in place from next month, will mean that compensation deals between operators will be made uniform.

Consumer groups said the announcement from the Department for Transport means passengers could now claim for any delay which was caused by train operators. Currently, rules on compensation mean payouts are only available when trains are at least 30 minutes late.

The new rules also mean that passengers will be paid in cash rather than vouchers, and can also claim for losses caused by missed connections on their journeys.

Rail Minister Paul Maynard said: "The Government is committed to strengthening the standard compensation schemes that operators offer, including completing the roll-out of Delay Repay with our industry partners."

Continues ...

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ains-after-compensation-shakeup-a3338486.html

The press articles on this are pretty vague, so it's not clear how this is going to be applied.
 
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kieron

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The press articles on this are pretty vague, so it's not clear how this is going to be applied.
Are they any clearer on where this would leave delays caused by NR or third parties?

It would be interesting to know how they put this in the press shortly after publishing the ITT for what they are calling the West Midlands Franchise (which describes a different compensation structure).
 

bb21

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Every minister wants his own idea implemented. There will never be a uniform policy if this carries on. Confusion for passengers carries on.

They all want a personal stamp. Personal egos trump everything else.

How are you gonna implement such a thing? A load of nonsence thought of through the minister's backside clearly with no understanding of how things work.
 

swt_passenger

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So taking that above quote as gospel, on the 1st of October, SWT (and any other TOC not already on the delay repay scheme) will just switch over? With 3 weeks notice?

I thought the usual explanation for not doing it yet was that the 2007 franchise terms would have to be varied?

Every delay? My 3 hour journey is 3 mins late, I want a sixtieth of my fare back?

This bit "and can also claim for losses caused by missed connections on their journeys", isn't actually new is it?
 
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Tetchytyke

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There's no reason why it can't change, the change to NR vouchers as cash went through even on franchises where there was still plenty of time left on the agreement. It comes down to political will.
 

najaB

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There's no reason why it can't change, the change to NR vouchers as cash went through even on franchises where there was still plenty of time left on the agreement. It comes down to political will.
That wasn't as big a change though - for some TOCs it wasn't a change at all.
 

AlterEgo

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Would love to hear some more detail about this. Was aware this was happening but have no firm details.

I had no idea it was coming so soon.
 

M28361M

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Is it something to do with this announcement on the DfT website, dated 6 September 2016?

Rail customers should be entitled to seek statutory redress from 1 October if train operators:

  • fail to provide a passenger service reasonable care and skill
  • breach other consumer rights provided under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA)

The existing rail industry compensation schemes will continue to be available after 1 October 2016, and will remain the main means of redress for customers.
 

Elecman

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Is this the implementation of 15 minute threshold got delay repay compensation from the present 30 minute threshold?
 

swt_passenger

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The middle part of the Standard article implies it is and, if so, the first two paragraphs of the article are misleading, at best.

Wouldn't be the first time a Standard article let a big cat out of the bag and it later turned out to be a newly born kitten...
 

infobleep

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So how much is this going to cost the Department for Transport and thus tax payers? After all it costs to change franchise agreements. That's why some companies still only pay out after an hour.

If no coats are occurred why wasn't this done sooner. Couldn't the previous rail minster be bothered?

Whatever happens I expect confusion.

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bb21

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Is it something to do with this announcement on the DfT website, dated 6 September 2016?

I believe this is somewhat related, from what I have heard.

So how much is this going to cost the Department for Transport and thus tax payers? After all it costs to change franchise agreements. That's why some companies still only pay out after an hour.

If no coats are occurred why wasn't this done sooner. Couldn't the previous rail minster be bothered?

Whatever happens I expect confusion.

Expect more arguments, and, if what I am hearing is true, there are already unscrupulous lawyers wanting to cash in on this change.

Can't wait to see how many people will actually be winners through this change. :roll:
 

Starmill

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Compensation is not paid for by taxpayers.

Or do you mean that the Government may be subject to legal action by TOCs? And how might unscrupulous lawyers come into it?
 

bb21

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Compensation is not paid for by taxpayers.

Indirectly funded by tax-payers. For example, if a more expensive compensation scheme is forecast for a franchise, bidders will ask for more money from the department. Same if there are to be changes which were not in the terms of the original franchise.

Money doesn't fall out of the sky. If more compensation is paid out, it will have to come from somewhere.

Or do you mean that the Government may be subject to legal action by TOCs?

It will be interesting times ahead. Not necessarily that the department will be subject to legal actions, but there will be changes.

And how might unscrupulous lawyers come into it?

There will be a lot of grey area in relation to the new Act that's coming into play.

Sorry, I am unable to elaborate any more beyond that. Not on a public forum.
 

Merseysider

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I personally don't see the point. It won't encourage more people to travel by rail, it won't improve punctuality and it'll only lead to an increase in fraudulent claims, as it's much easier to find a train which was 15 down than it is a 30 late train.

If a delay of 10-20 minutes has such a severe impact on someone's day that they expect compensation, then I'd argue that person is poor at time management.

Additionally, for a lot of short journeys the compensation will only be in the region of £1 which, excluding Southern, is not going to happen often enough to be worth claiming, especially considering the required admin work on the TOC's part. Northern already take the píss replying to claims for just 30 minutes, so if you open the floodgates nobody will get anything at all as there'll simply be too many frivolous claims.

CrossCountry already include excessive amounts of padding in their timetables (10+ minutes at BHM is not uncommon even without a reversal) so you can expect to see more of that if these ideas are pushed through.

Much better, in my opinion, would be to pay out a nominal amount, maybe 15 or 20%, for delays of 25-29 minutes, as that's still an annoying amount of time to be delayed but currently falls short of the threshold.
 

bb21

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Delay Repay is a great system. The rules are simple and there is very little room for disagreements because all that matters is the extent of the delay. The threshold can be discussed, and amended accordingly, but it is a clear system that everyone understands.

There may be one or two issues that need clarifying, such as the case with split tickets, but apart from that, it is pretty concise, and easy to understand.

We finally have a good working system, and somehow we want to mess it all up again. :roll:
 

Starmill

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Indirectly funded by tax-payers. For example, if a more expensive compensation scheme is forecast for a franchise, bidders will ask for more money from the department. Same if there are to be changes which were not in the terms of the original franchise.

Given it's such a tiny proportion of costs, and it's affected by lots of other things such as how many delayed trains the company runs, or the method of payment the TOC uses for the compensation, I don't think there will be any noticeable effect at all at the Treasury. I wouldn't see it as a concern.

It's doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. There's no detail yet but I can't see how this could have negative effects. Ever since David Cameron (sign of the times) said in a PMQs answer that Southern passengers would get better compensation, which implied at the time 15 minute Delay Repay we have been waiting for an announcement 'in due course'.
 
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transmanche

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I personally don't see the point. It won't encourage more people to travel by rail, it won't improve punctuality and it'll only lead to an increase in fraudulent claims, as it's much easier to find a train which was 15 down than it is a 30 late train.
London Underground, DLR and Nexus Metro already offer a 100% refund if your journeys is delayed by 15mins or more - so why not for NR journeys of a similar nature.

If I was delayed by 15 mins on a journey between Sunderland and Newcastle, I'd get 100% of my fare refunded if I was on the Metro, but nothing at all if it was on a Northern Rail train - that hardly seems fair. (In fact, even if I was delayed by 30 mins on the train, I'd only get 50% of my fare refunded.*)

* Although at least Northern do offer an alternative of a free single ticket to anywhere on their network instead of a refund.
 

najaB

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London Underground, DLR and Nexus Metro already offer a 100% refund if your journeys is delayed by 15mins or more - so why not for NR journeys of a similar nature.
Agreed. But this will apply to journeys of a significantly different nature as well.
 

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I think the money would be better spent on improved resilience against delays and speedier resolution of incidents once they do happen. This could improve an increased number of Network Rail Moms, additional station staff to reduce dwell times, a review of the rule book to identify procedures which are perhaps not conducive to speedy service recovery, and upskilling of local station staff to identify common problems to get the service moving under failure conditions.
 

infobleep

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I personally don't see the point. It won't encourage more people to travel by rail, it won't improve punctuality and it'll only lead to an increase in fraudulent claims, as it's much easier to find a train which was 15 down than it is a 30 late train.

If a delay of 10-20 minutes has such a severe impact on someone's day that they expect compensation, then I'd argue that person is poor at time management.

Additionally, for a lot of short journeys the compensation will only be in the region of £1 which, excluding Southern, is not going to happen often enough to be worth claiming, especially considering the required admin work on the TOC's part. Northern already take the píss replying to claims for just 30 minutes, so if you open the floodgates nobody will get anything at all as there'll simply be too many frivolous claims.

CrossCountry already include excessive amounts of padding in their timetables (10+ minutes at BHM is not uncommon even without a reversal) so you can expect to see more of that if these ideas are pushed through.

Much better, in my opinion, would be to pay out a nominal amount, maybe 15 or 20%, for delays of 25-29 minutes, as that's still an annoying amount of time to be delayed but currently falls short of the threshold.

I doubt dome rail companies have spare minutes to add any more padding. London Midland trains between Euston and Tring are very tight at Tring so padding could only be at Euston if time permitted, which is may not do.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the money would be better spent on improved resilience against delays and speedier resolution of incidents once they do happen. This could improve an increased number of Network Rail Moms, additional station staff to reduce dwell times, a review of the rule book to identify procedures which are perhaps not conducive to speedy service recovery, and upskilling of local station staff to identify common problems to get the service moving under failure conditions.
Would it help if day attribution system was amended. What costs more, passengers or that?

Could that system we amended without making punctuality worse?

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Would it help if day attribution system was amended. What costs more, passengers or that?

Could that system we amended without making punctuality worse?

How do you propose to change it, especially with what objective in mind?
 

Tetchytyke

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TOCs already profit to a huge amount from delay attribution, the TSSA reckon it is upwards of £150m a year. But regardless of what the actual figure is, we know the TOCs get a lot more from Network Rail than the amount they pass on to their customers, the people who actually pay the bill in the first place.

I don't see why the TOCs should profit from delay compensation, as this money should be going to the passengers who have actually suffered the inconvenience of delay.

The money could be spent on resilience, but it isn't: it's spent on the TOC shareholders. So I see no issue whatsoever with taking the cash from the TOC fat cats and handing it to the people who have actually been screwed over.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If a delay of 10-20 minutes has such a severe impact on someone's day that they expect compensation, then I'd argue that person is poor at time management.

It has such a negative impact on the TOC that they expect compensation at ten minutes, so why on earth should the passengers be held to a different standard?

15 minutes is not an insignificant period of time. My commute on London Midland- which cost over £400 a month, so we're not talking small sums either- involved a train ride of 24 minutes in each direction. A 20 minute delay doubled my commuting time. Most journeys in the south east are less than 30 minutes in duration, which means that a 30 minute delay is a significant inconvenience.

I get compensation from T&W Metro at 15 minutes, and that is the cost of a single fare, not a calculation (in their favour) of how many hypothetical journeys I could have made on my season ticket. The world hasn't fallen in up here.

But then ATOC have always argued that any change that takes money out of their pockets and puts it back into the customers' is A Bad Thing. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
 
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Starmill

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There are other benefits to delay repay too. It can encourage people to make additional rail journeys if they're sent vouchers, and this of course means they're likely to put some more of their own cash back in. If they're sent a cheque it encourages consumer spending anywhere, which is good for the economy in general.

Fundamentally train companies should strive for better performance, and the more people who claim delay repay the bigger the incentive is to do something about poor performance. Compensation for passengers, especially when it's paid in vouchers, isn't going to make up a big proportion at all of the firm's costs, but I would love to see the figures for compensation paid by GTR and Caledonian Sleeper in the past year or so!

Finally, knowing that you have some form of redress if one's plans are dashed by train delays gives potential customers some confidence to travel by rail where they may not have before.
 
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MikeWh

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I think the money would be better spent on improved resilience against delays and speedier resolution of incidents once they do happen. This could improve an increased number of Network Rail Moms, additional station staff to reduce dwell times, a review of the rule book to identify procedures which are perhaps not conducive to speedy service recovery, and upskilling of local station staff to identify common problems to get the service moving under failure conditions.

Call me cynical but, that sounds like an invitation for a long drawn out battle with the unions at the even greater expense of the passengers.
 

infobleep

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How do you propose to change it, especially with what objective in mind?
I honestly don't know. However given they are tinkering with the passenger payment side of compensation, I just wonder could they do anything with the industry side.

I don't know which one costs more to run. I know industry one keeps costs within the industry where as paying passengers doesn't. However the industry one seems to be more complex than the paying passengers one. If it's more complex then it surely it takes more staff to work out.

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bb21

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I honestly don't know. However given they are tinkering with the passenger payment side of compensation, I just wonder could they do anything with the industry side.

I don't know which one costs more to run. I know industry one keeps costs within the industry where as paying passengers doesn't. However the industry one seems to be more complex than the paying passengers one. If it's more complex then it surely it takes more staff to work out.

Perhaps the much-maligned (on this forum at least) delay attribution process could be improved, but I don't know how either at the moment.

It's an interesting one. The outcome of the delay attribution process is used quite extensively by TOCs (those wishing to raise operational standards) to focus efforts in areas that require improvement, and devise action plans accordingly. It's the only credible way currently in existence that attemps to provide an insight into the underlying causes of sub-standard performances. There is already an existing system around it. There is a lot of added value in the system which people who do not work with it won't necessarily see. A total workforce of 600 NR staff (as it was claimed by some) really isn't that many in the grand scheme of things considering the benefits that can be derived. Even so there are still a lot of small delays which are not fully understood due to a lack of manpower during big incidents, which is an important area of consideration at many TOCs.

The compensation scheme is an entirely different entity. It merely uses the delay attribution results as a reference point, and with the onset of Delay Repay, the role the background attribution process played was greatly diminished. Interestingly with the application of the Consumer Rights Act, this trend will likely be reversed, and the cost of administering the compensation scheme will likely go up too. A worthwhile change? Who knows.
 
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