Old Timer
Established Member
All this talk of survivability is all rather silly. There have been more deaths, and the risk assessment accepts there will be deaths during the evacuation of the LUL system.
There is an infantisimal chance of deaths occurring through a train failure in the Channel Tunnel and to start down a road to suggest this, as well as introducing "conspiracy" where there is plainly (to the expert eye), been none, is to say the least inappropriate.
All that we need now is for the gutter Press to pick up on this and hey presto more bad Railway news because someone wants to make ill-informed speculation. :roll:
It NOT "....difficult to envisage a scenario where all motors are functioning correctly 10 minutes prior to entering the tunnel and then sufficient fail to disable the train..." The traction motors need an air supply to maintain their temperature within an acceptable range. This is supply by both forced air as well as air entering the power car through the side grills. This is necessary to cope with the high summer temperatures.
To prevent snow entering into this area it is the practice to install protection. This protection has worked very well with the type of snow that has been experienced so far.
Even the French are accepting that the type of snow is somewhat different in texture this year.
In this particular case the snow was able to reach the main transformers and cause problems.
Much has been said about the number of trains in the tunnel. There is nothing unusual in this and it is perfectly permissible, indeed if we worked on the basis of only one train in there at a time, we might as well all go back to using the ships.
Comment has been made as to the length of time that was taken to clear the trains.
Going in to recover a train is a time consuming process and is never done before the Driver has established that there is a complete traction failure.
Having come to a stand the Driver of the first train carried out a series of fault finding procedures before it became apparant that the train was a complete failure. Communications were hampered by the particular situation that exists in the Tunnel and the need for technical advice to be transmitted via third/fourth parties.
During this time subsequent trains started to develop traction and power supply problems.
The rescue locos are intended to rescue "one-off" failures. In this case there were a series of trains that had to be recovered. Unfortunately both lines at one time were blocked.
As I believe someone has already stated, it would be necessary for the assisting locomotive(s) to rectreate the air pressure through the train, as the air within the system will always leak off over time, without the compressors running.
As the trains require a considerable amount of air for the braking system pipes, the individiual bogie brake reservoir cylinders, the air suspension, door operating systems, et al, it took some time before the first train had sufficient air pressure to enable it to be withdrawn. This is an inevitable fact of life.
A "normal" HST/Mk4 set/Pendolino will take some time for the locomotive to recreate the air throughout the whole train from one end, again a fact of life.
In practically all cases of the forseeable failure modes, the battery supplies will be adequate to maintain the environmental conditions on a failed train form a sufficient period to enable the assistance to come from either end of the tunnel. In this case the sheer volume of failed trains extended this time.
The option of using a train on another line to recover passengers is ranked at the lower end of the scale, because in normal circumstances, there Eurostar trains are capable of operating through the tunnel with one power car operational. In less than normal circumstances, the option to split the train is available but is less optimal.
Multiple individual train failures within an area are extremely rare, indeed in my whole service life I have known this only once, indeed I was on shift when it happened. The result was two trains standing side by side, one on the Down Fast and one on the Down Slow.
An EMU had failed on the Down Slow with a F/Liner stood in rear, and a loco hauled Class 1 was stood on the Down Fast with an EMU behind. The outcome was the blockage of the WCML one Christmas Eve for nearly two hours whilst we got assistance arranged. Part of this delay was due to having to blow air into the failed trains.
I use this as an example so that we can get a little perspective into the argument.
There has been much indignation shown on here and much criticism made of the lack of redundancy.
The simple fact is that as a Country we are NOT prepared to pay for this, unlike our Continental cousins. Both I and a Traction Engineer would very easily give you as much redundancy as you want, even to the once in a million year event.
The one thing I guarantee though is that YOU will NOT want to pay the premium that this brings with it.
The sad thing is that those who wail and moan loudest of all, and demand head on plates, are those usually least willing to pay for what they demand.
Over this very same weekend several thousands of people were trapped overnight on the road network in the UK. On Saturday passengers boarded a morning flight at 1600 hours, and were still sat on the plane on the tarmac 12 hours later. Basingstoke appears to have been caught totally unawares by the snow and frost every other part of the Country knew was coming, yet once again it is the Railways who are the target of the Media.
There is an infantisimal chance of deaths occurring through a train failure in the Channel Tunnel and to start down a road to suggest this, as well as introducing "conspiracy" where there is plainly (to the expert eye), been none, is to say the least inappropriate.
All that we need now is for the gutter Press to pick up on this and hey presto more bad Railway news because someone wants to make ill-informed speculation. :roll:
It NOT "....difficult to envisage a scenario where all motors are functioning correctly 10 minutes prior to entering the tunnel and then sufficient fail to disable the train..." The traction motors need an air supply to maintain their temperature within an acceptable range. This is supply by both forced air as well as air entering the power car through the side grills. This is necessary to cope with the high summer temperatures.
To prevent snow entering into this area it is the practice to install protection. This protection has worked very well with the type of snow that has been experienced so far.
Even the French are accepting that the type of snow is somewhat different in texture this year.
In this particular case the snow was able to reach the main transformers and cause problems.
Much has been said about the number of trains in the tunnel. There is nothing unusual in this and it is perfectly permissible, indeed if we worked on the basis of only one train in there at a time, we might as well all go back to using the ships.
Comment has been made as to the length of time that was taken to clear the trains.
Going in to recover a train is a time consuming process and is never done before the Driver has established that there is a complete traction failure.
Having come to a stand the Driver of the first train carried out a series of fault finding procedures before it became apparant that the train was a complete failure. Communications were hampered by the particular situation that exists in the Tunnel and the need for technical advice to be transmitted via third/fourth parties.
During this time subsequent trains started to develop traction and power supply problems.
The rescue locos are intended to rescue "one-off" failures. In this case there were a series of trains that had to be recovered. Unfortunately both lines at one time were blocked.
As I believe someone has already stated, it would be necessary for the assisting locomotive(s) to rectreate the air pressure through the train, as the air within the system will always leak off over time, without the compressors running.
As the trains require a considerable amount of air for the braking system pipes, the individiual bogie brake reservoir cylinders, the air suspension, door operating systems, et al, it took some time before the first train had sufficient air pressure to enable it to be withdrawn. This is an inevitable fact of life.
A "normal" HST/Mk4 set/Pendolino will take some time for the locomotive to recreate the air throughout the whole train from one end, again a fact of life.
In practically all cases of the forseeable failure modes, the battery supplies will be adequate to maintain the environmental conditions on a failed train form a sufficient period to enable the assistance to come from either end of the tunnel. In this case the sheer volume of failed trains extended this time.
The option of using a train on another line to recover passengers is ranked at the lower end of the scale, because in normal circumstances, there Eurostar trains are capable of operating through the tunnel with one power car operational. In less than normal circumstances, the option to split the train is available but is less optimal.
Multiple individual train failures within an area are extremely rare, indeed in my whole service life I have known this only once, indeed I was on shift when it happened. The result was two trains standing side by side, one on the Down Fast and one on the Down Slow.
An EMU had failed on the Down Slow with a F/Liner stood in rear, and a loco hauled Class 1 was stood on the Down Fast with an EMU behind. The outcome was the blockage of the WCML one Christmas Eve for nearly two hours whilst we got assistance arranged. Part of this delay was due to having to blow air into the failed trains.
I use this as an example so that we can get a little perspective into the argument.
There has been much indignation shown on here and much criticism made of the lack of redundancy.
The simple fact is that as a Country we are NOT prepared to pay for this, unlike our Continental cousins. Both I and a Traction Engineer would very easily give you as much redundancy as you want, even to the once in a million year event.
The one thing I guarantee though is that YOU will NOT want to pay the premium that this brings with it.
The sad thing is that those who wail and moan loudest of all, and demand head on plates, are those usually least willing to pay for what they demand.
Over this very same weekend several thousands of people were trapped overnight on the road network in the UK. On Saturday passengers boarded a morning flight at 1600 hours, and were still sat on the plane on the tarmac 12 hours later. Basingstoke appears to have been caught totally unawares by the snow and frost every other part of the Country knew was coming, yet once again it is the Railways who are the target of the Media.