Chiltern May 2011 Timetable

[Chafford1]

I wish they were concentrating on fast services to Birmingham.

I'm a regular traveller from Marylebone to Solihull, with occasional trips on to Birmingham. The year before last, I would regularly get the 07.20 to Solihull, arriving 09.24. Then last year it was started earlier, at 07.15, to fit in some extra stops and work around a WSMR service, still arriving the same time, so it now takes 2hrs 9 mins to Solihull, 2hrs 19 to Moor Street.

What does the new timetable give me? A 07.24 departure arriving 09.24 Solihull, 9.34 Moor Street. So nine minutes quicker than the current timetable, but only four minutes quicker than it was a year ago.

The next service heading to Birmingham is not until 08:07, a gap of 43 minutes, arriving Moor Street 09:55 taking 1hr 48. My journey home (to London) is much improved in the evening, typically 20-30 minutes quicker. But for anyone travelling on business, needing to be in Birmingham or nearby for 9.30am, this timetable doesn't deliver what was promised.

Let Chiltern know via the consultation!
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I wish they were concentrating on fast services to Birmingham.

I'm a regular traveller from Marylebone to Solihull, with occasional trips on to Birmingham. The year before last, I would regularly get the 07.20 to Solihull, arriving 09.24. Then last year it was started earlier, at 07.15, to fit in some extra stops and work around a WSMR service, still arriving the same time, so it now takes 2hrs 9 mins to Solihull, 2hrs 19 to Moor Street.

What does the new timetable give me? A 07.24 departure arriving 09.24 Solihull, 9.34 Moor Street. So nine minutes quicker than the current timetable, but only four minutes quicker than it was a year ago.

The next service heading to Birmingham is not until 08:07, a gap of 43 minutes, arriving Moor Street 09:55 taking 1hr 48. My journey home (to London) is much improved in the evening, typically 20-30 minutes quicker. But for anyone travelling on business, needing to be in Birmingham or nearby for 9.30am, this timetable doesn't deliver what was promised.

Try the 07.00 from Marylebone which will get you into Solihull at 08.49 - time for a bit of breakfast in Solihull!

 

[Daz28]

Logically, Birmingham is aa massive place, so you'd think there was demand for travel northbound in the morning, and that Solihull would be an important place for all Chiltern services to stop at (it was big enough for XC to serve hourly a few years ago), but...

All the Birmingham services do stop at Solihull, so in that sense they are serving the need. And the current timetable has a half-hourly service, apart from the anomaly of the 7.15 creating a 35 minute gap.

The new timetable has the first train to Birmingham starting later (07:00), you cannot arrive in Birmingham by Chiltern before 08:59, and we now have this anomaly of a 43 minute gap in services right in the morning peak. It reverts back to half hourly from 08.37 onwards.

In my experience both the 07.15 and 07.50 to Birmingham are approx 50% loaded, all double seats have at least one occupant and the tables of four have at least 2, this with a four-car 168 taking two hours.

The earlier draft timetable last year had a better service at this time in the morning, so I can only assume they have sacrificed the early fast services to Birmingham to provide more stoppers nearer London.

I'll feed back via the consultation process, so I can only hope there is still some time to tweak timings.
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Try the 07.00 from Marylebone which will get you into Solihull at 08.49 - time for a bit of breakfast in Solihull!

I caught the 06.50 once before, and I decided my brain is not expected to function at that time of the morning!

As I have a SouthEastern into Charing Cross and a tube to Marylebone before getting to that service, it involves an exceptionally early start.

 

[RPM]

Chiltern share their tracks with LM, Cross Country and FGW, plus there is a reasonable amount of freight. It is only the run into Marylebone where they truly have a blank sheet of paper, but even there the schedule has to consider London Underground on the Aylesbury service.

Thank You! I wish more people understood this. Sharing tracks with LU (on their terms, because it is their tracks) is no joke, and something no other TOC has to cope with.

 

[tbtc]

Chiltern share their tracks with LM, Cross Country and FGW, plus there is a reasonable amount of freight. It is only the run into Marylebone where they truly have a blank sheet of paper, but even there the schedule has to consider London Underground on the Aylesbury service.

There are many TOCs who share with less.

London Midland is an issue (hence my mention of Dorridge)

Cross Country is a half hourly service, clockface at the Banbury end, only hourly through Solihull)

FGW? Only really impact on that one token Paddington service Chiltern operate.

Compared to most TOCs that's a fairly free reign...

 

[The Planner]

Reasonable amount of freight ?? they share with the box trains north of Aynho but there is sod all south of that, a few bin liners to Calvert and Northolt. The freight gets looped out of their way anyway north of Aynho. The biggest problem Chiltern have is themselves with all the stoppers south of Bicester. They are far from the worst TOC to try and plan.

 

[TomJ93]

Hang on, CH's fastest will be 15minutes slower than VT's?

I maybe wrong but Virgin are using 125mph tilting electric stock on a recently upgraded (at our expense) line. Chiltern on the other hand are using 100mph Diesels and the odd piece of 67 Haulage which as I understand it has speed limits imposed for much of the journey.

It is all very well saying that VT share alot of their track, but between Rugby and Bletchley they go through Kilsby, whilst everything else goes through Northampton. There are also fast and slow lines on this route and the 350s were designed to accelerate out of the 390s way. (admittedly this doesn't happen between International and Coventry where I always seem to be stuck behind a stopper )

Also as I understand it VT are heavily subsidised and have a nice income from 1st class passengers. Chiltern operate standard only, don't have much subsidy yet they are upgrading the route themselves (taking the financial hit that comes with weekend closures etc). Is there something i'm missing? Where is all the WC money going? Or the CH money coming from?

(Apologies for an incorrect facts, with VT I am focusing on the B'ham branch.)

 

[The Planner]

18 minutes slower, 72 versus 90. Its not all that simple though, if you take the average speed of the two routes, Chiltern comes in at 74mph based on 111½ miles (i think) and West Coast at 98mph based on 118 miles ish (again, stand to be corrected...) based on the fastest runs.

Whilst WCRM vastly vastly outnumbers Evergreen in terms of cost, it isn't just £250 million. Doing a bit of digging, Evergreen 1 was £66m, Evergreen 2 was £70m. Leamington corridor re-signalling helped them a fair bit too, that came in at £75m. Cherwell Valley resignalling was £35m. Add all that together and you are close to £500 million. Does ask some pertinent questions about the West Coast though...

 

[alexjames]

Slightly off topic but I note that sundry kit has been dropped off at Neasden Junction lately.

Routine maintenance or are they going to build the wholly necessary diveunder or flyover there?

 

[Daz28]

Cross Country is a half hourly service, clockface at the Banbury end, only hourly through Solihull)

FGW? Only really impact on that one token Paddington service Chiltern operate.

n...

Between 7 and 9am there are more Cross Country services from Banbury to Leamington than Chiltern.

FGW slow services terminate at Banbury during peak.
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Reasonable amount of freight ?? they share with the box trains north of Aynho but there is sod all south of that, a few bin liners to Calvert and Northolt. The freight gets looped out of their way anyway north of Aynho.

I don't profess to know much about freight movements, I just observe that I usually see two heading south whilst I'm heading North, and there is always one sometimes two through Solihull whilst I'm on the platform.

 

[Chafford1]

Slightly off topic but I note that sundry kit has been dropped off at Neasden Junction lately.

Routine maintenance or are they going to build the wholly necessary diveunder or flyover there?

Still a flat junction as far as I'm aware, but a revision in layout so that High Wycombe line trains can pass through at 75mph - the Aylesbury line will be restricted to 60mph at Neasden Junction.
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18 minutes slower, 72 versus 90. Its not all that simple though, if you take the average speed of the two routes, Chiltern comes in at 74mph based on 111½ miles (i think) and West Coast at 98mph based on 118 miles ish (again, stand to be corrected...) based on the fastest runs.

Whilst WCRM vastly vastly outnumbers Evergreen in terms of cost, it isn't just £250 million. Doing a bit of digging, Evergreen 1 was £66m, Evergreen 2 was £70m. Leamington corridor re-signalling helped them a fair bit too, that came in at £75m. Cherwell Valley resignalling was £35m. Add all that together and you are close to £500 million. Does ask some pertinent questions about the West Coast though...

The 72 minutes timing is only in one direction though.
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All the Birmingham services do stop at Solihull, so in that sense they are serving the need. And the current timetable has a half-hourly service, apart from the anomaly of the 7.15 creating a 35 minute gap.

The new timetable has the first train to Birmingham starting later (07:00), you cannot arrive in Birmingham by Chiltern before 08:59, and we now have this anomaly of a 43 minute gap in services right in the morning peak. It reverts back to half hourly from 08.37 onwards.

In my experience both the 07.15 and 07.50 to Birmingham are approx 50% loaded, all double seats have at least one occupant and the tables of four have at least 2, this with a four-car 168 taking two hours.

The earlier draft timetable last year had a better service at this time in the morning, so I can only assume they have sacrificed the early fast services to Birmingham to provide more stoppers nearer London.

I'll feed back via the consultation process, so I can only hope there is still some time to tweak timings.
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I caught the 06.50 once before, and I decided my brain is not expected to function at that time of the morning!

As I have a SouthEastern into Charing Cross and a tube to Marylebone before getting to that service, it involves an exceptionally early start.

Chiltern certainly seem to be missing a trick with the slow early morning timings to Birmingham.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Does ask some pertinent questions about the West Coast though...

Darned... you beat me to it. Was going to post the near the same message.

Over the last 20 odd years, there's been something of a quiet revolution on the Chiltern line. When I first did the line, it was an hourly service only as far as Banbury using heritage DMUs. Goodness knows how long that took. Now look: 3 train an hour to Banbury, two of which continue to Birmingham.

What is Chiltern Railways subsibidy profile ? Be interesting to know that their call is on the taxpayer.

 

[cle]

They've been hugely successful. Yes their network is a bit more self-contained, but clearly the 20 year franchise has worked. It's time to roll that out to other less overlapping franchises, such as GEML and LTS ones, and maybe Southern/Southeastern.

Their investment and willingness to improve (not to mention listen to feedback re: new timetables) has been impressive. And given that, Birmingham excepted, they don't served many major destinations, they've certainly done well.

I expect the new link to Bicester and Oxford will do even more for them. Oxford is so competitive though!

 

[SS4]

Don't forget the redevelopment of Birmingham Moor St means that (more) trains can now start/terminate there instead of using the tunnels under New St to Snow Hill which would save some time.

It was also impressive how they managed to put on extra long trains when engineering works were taking place on the WCML and they could still serve all but two stations en route

I would like to see actual seat reservations and maybe a quiet coach on the longer distance services though.

 

[cle]

I'm sure that with the locos, they'll start introducing more stuff like that. 1st class must be on the way, if only to Birmingham.

I'm surprised they never lengthened the platforms at Ricky, but then again, maybe they're not bothered about stopping there!

They also did Aylesbury Vale Parkway, which was very speculative. Hopefully they'll keep going!

 

[shinkansen1966]

It was also impressive how they managed to put on extra long trains when engineering

Not only that, but Chiltern Railways has been an early adopter of mobile ticketing. When exactly will other TOCs follow suit ?

Oh and Chiltern Railways will soon give iPhone lovers (like me) an app
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/iphone-revolution-reaches-rail-end-ticket-office-queues

 

[Lad Brookes]

I'm surprised they never lengthened the platforms at Ricky, but then again, maybe they're not bothered about stopping there!

It could prove to be tricky, with the line going over a bridge at either end. Given that it's an LUL rather than NR station/line, would Chiltern be able to get LUL to extend it?

 

[driverchris52]

Reasonable amount of freight ?? they share with the box trains north of Aynho but there is sod all south of that, a few bin liners to Calvert and Northolt. The freight gets looped out of their way anyway north of Aynho. The biggest problem Chiltern have is themselves with all the stoppers south of Bicester. They are far from the worst TOC to try and plan.

Ha! The freight gets looped does it? Not a couple of weeks ago when I was waiting to leave the up bay at Banbury and the freightliner that Banbury South had pulled off for 2-3 minutes before I was due to depart finally passed me 5 minutes after I should have left! :-x

 

[The Planner]

Sounds like 4O54, the one that is meant to go into Aynho loop (but can't...). Its booked before you and signallers will go to the booked times, if Banbury South put you out first any delay would be O coded to them not Y coded like it probably was.

 

[TDK]

Thank You! I wish more people understood this. Sharing tracks with LU (on their terms, because it is their tracks) is no joke, and something no other TOC has to cope with.

Except the ones that run from Wimbledon to Putney bridge ECS (if they still do that), and also LOROL on the Euston to Watford line

 

[RPM]

Except the ones that run from Wimbledon to Putney bridge ECS (if they still do that), and also LOROL on the Euston to Watford line

That's the other way round though - LUL running on NR infrastructure, not TOC services running on LUL infrastructure.
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I'm surprised they never lengthened the platforms at Ricky, but then again, maybe they're not bothered about stopping there!

The latter is correct. There's nothing in it for Chiltern to stop more or longer trains at Rickmansworth. They get a fairly modest fixed payment for stopping at the LUL Met stations. If they had their way they'd probably run everything fast between Amersham and Harrow but LUL don't want them to.

 

[TomJ93]

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/s...ford - Banbury - London Weekday timetable.pdf

no mention of the WSMR set or the chiltern and their technicolour mk iii either

 

[barrykas]

There's nothing in it for Chiltern to stop more or longer trains at Rickmansworth. They get a fairly modest fixed payment for stopping at the LUL Met stations. If they had their way they'd probably run everything fast between Amersham and Harrow but LUL don't want them to.

I'm led to believe the introduction of Oyster has resulted in much "improved" allocation of revenue from the Met Line, now they can turn round and present hard evidence as to how many passengers get carried on Chiltern's Mets.

Of course, it remains to be seen what effect the full introduction of the S8 stock, coupled with the Met resignalling, will have on the timetables and loadings.
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no mention of the WSMR set or the chiltern and their technicolour mk iii either

Why would there be an explicit mention, given a 67 + 4 Mk 3s + DVT (and, presumably, a 67 + 6 Mk3s + DVT) can keep to 168 timings quite happily?

There's also the small matter of the Track Access Agreement, which specifies the "standard" formation for each service (i.e. 121, 165 or 168), and which each schedule has to be based on IIRC.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[alexjames]

Thanks to Chafford above for settling my query on the prospects for Neasden Junction.

Does anybody know broadly how revenue is split between LUL & Chiltern for journeys starting and finishing at Harrow, Amersham and intermediate stops? There is mention above of a fixed fee but that seems unlikely given that Oyster provides data for most journeys. My regular trips between Harrow and Ricky are almost always on Chiltern and cross referencing Oyster data to the times of train movements would prove it. If that process was applied to all Oyster useage it would arrive at a reasonably accurate split between the two operators. But I doubt that it is done.

 

[MKB]

I think the time-saving aspect of a Virgin service is overplayed. If you're a business traveller, an extra 25 minutes to work/read/snooze can sometimes be attractive or beneficial. It's hard to find the time to get much done on a West Midlands Virgin. (Perhaps I should rephrase that?!)

However, for Chiltern to be a serious competitor for anything other than the very-price-sensitive passenger who is happy with a very basic no-frills service, it needs to provide:

- At least one first-class carriage;
- Seat reservations (at least on services that it knows will be busy such as those running on Wembley event days);
- Wifi;
- Decent catering;
- Doors that are in separate vestibules not in passenger seating areas, so that you don't freeze/get hot (dependent on season) at every stop;
- Power supply and table at seats - I forget if Chiltern already provide this?

 

[shinkansen1966]

However, for Chiltern to be a serious competitor for anything other than the very-price-sensitive passenger who is happy with a very basic no-frills service, it needs to provide:

- At least one first-class carriage;
- Seat reservations (at least on services that it knows will be busy such as those running on Wembley event days);
- Wifi;
- Decent catering;
- Doors that are in separate vestibules not in passenger seating areas, so that you don't freeze/get hot (dependent on season) at every stop;
- Power supply and table at seats - I forget if Chiltern already provide this?

Not sure how well they could offer 'decent catering' on a 168 clubman. But WiFi would be an excellent addition.

What's the mobile ticketing like on Chiltern Railways ?

This is one area that other TOCs can follow suit, on a universal basis making m-tickets available for all advanced purchase tickets and all other tickets for which the passenger has opted for a seat reservation for a specified train. The technology's out there. DB do it.

 

[Skimble19]

Chiltern recently (a matter of days ago) said on their Twitter page that they were seriously considering WiFi, so it might not be too far off!

As for mobile ticketing..

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/iphone-revolution-reaches-rail-end-ticket-office-queues

 

[anthony263]

Just found this in the may timetable :

10.29 Princes Risborough-Paddington and 11.36 back to Gerrards Cross

seems as if the southbound empty stock working is now back to carrying passengers. shame neither of them stop at South or West Ruislip

 

[barbette165]

Just found this in the may timetable :

10.29 Princes Risborough-Paddington and 11.36 back to Gerrards Cross

seems as if the southbound empty stock working is now back to carrying passengers. shame neither of them stop at South or West Ruislip

The 11:36 does stop at South Ruislip at 11:54

 

[KiddyKid]

It'll have a job to call at South Ruislip!! prehaps you mean West Ruislip..

 

[swt_passenger]

It'll have a job to call at South Ruislip!! prehaps you mean West Ruislip..

No, South Ruislip, as per the timetable. The junction remodelling has the line from Paddington joining the down loop and going through the down platform.

Before and after drawings are in this planning application:

http://w09.hillingdon.gov.uk/images/dv_pl_files/66712_APP_2010_103/016_4.pdf