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Cityfox Bus

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jammy36

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28 Aug 2013
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To be fair to Rhys he seems to have taken the smart business decision to test the private hire market, without committing to substantial capital expenditure. It is surely sensible for any small business looking to expand to do so in such a careful and controlled manner. As Rhys readily notes - it is his money on the line - if he gets a decision wrong it is his cash that is lost.

There have been many examples (particularly in the private hire market) of firms expanding too quickly or starting new ventures with expensively leased vehicle only to find they don't have the cash reserves necessary to stay afloat long enough to grow that market. It looks like Rhys is taking the sensible approach and testing before committing. The very nature of such an approach may mean that some venture never get off the ground and sometimes Cityfox's approach to marketing such ventures raises expectations beyond a reasonable level. It is a fine line between promoting yourself well and over egging the pudding.

Where my personal 'goodwill' falls short is some of the language Rhys has used in his online 'marketing'. Rhys notes above that the term 'misleading' is being used too much. In my last post I was very careful to use the words "have the potential to unfairly mislead a customer as to the company's abilities and resourcing". I stand by that phrase and I think the recent rewording of the Splendour website is a tacit admission that this was the case. I feel there are other areas of the group's online presence has the same potential and in my personal opinion a quick health check of online content would be advisable, just to be sure it all genuinely respects the current (rather than once intended state of the business).

My big bug bear, and one that hasn't been acknowledged or admitted is the issue of plagiarising copy from other web sources. This is a personal bugbear, I am good friends with a copywriter and this is a very skilled job. Sometimes she creates copy for companies from scratch, sometimes she edits and corrects existing copy. The recent case of the Spurs tube posters being case in point why you can't rely on a designer to check copy! She often sees her copy lifted and reused in other website - companies benefiting from her skills without paying for them. Good copy doesn't come free and wholesale or partial plagiarism of another company's website is theft. It also raises the issue that text should be tailored to your business, copied text might look good at first glance, but can never really reflect your business. I'm sure the plagiarism issue will once again get side stepped, but I hope Rhys will take on board this criticism and act on it. I hope he also takes on board the spirit in which the above comment is made - I have used strong language like theft - but the intention was to do so constructively, not to be defamatory so that positive changes can be made and past mistakes not repeated.
 
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Bletchleyite

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"Marston Vale mafia"
most coach brokers are dishonest about how services will be provided. theyll all have anonymous pictures of coaches on the front page and bury the true nature of their business deep within the words. just do a net search for any uk city with coaches afterwards and see how many are actual recognized operators in that city in the results, in contrast to how many are faceless brokers with a pobox address.

Doesn't mean that that practice is to be encouraged.
 

RhysHand

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4 Nov 2016
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Location
Bristol
To be fair to Rhys he seems to have taken the smart business decision to test the private hire market, without committing to substantial capital expenditure. It is surely sensible for any small business looking to expand to do so in such a careful and controlled manner. As Rhys readily notes - it is his money on the line - if he gets a decision wrong it is his cash that is lost.

There have been many examples (particularly in the private hire market) of firms expanding too quickly or starting new ventures with expensively leased vehicle only to find they don't have the cash reserves necessary to stay afloat long enough to grow that market. It looks like Rhys is taking the sensible approach and testing before committing. The very nature of such an approach may mean that some venture never get off the ground and sometimes Cityfox's approach to marketing such ventures raises expectations beyond a reasonable level. It is a fine line between promoting yourself well and over egging the pudding.

Where my personal 'goodwill' falls short is some of the language Rhys has used in his online 'marketing'. Rhys notes above that the term 'misleading' is being used too much. In my last post I was very careful to use the words "have the potential to unfairly mislead a customer as to the company's abilities and resourcing". I stand by that phrase and I think the recent rewording of the Splendour website is a tacit admission that this was the case. I feel there are other areas of the group's online presence has the same potential and in my personal opinion a quick health check of online content would be advisable, just to be sure it all genuinely respects the current (rather than once intended state of the business).

My big bug bear, and one that hasn't been acknowledged or admitted is the issue of plagiarising copy from other web sources. This is a personal bugbear, I am good friends with a copywriter and this is a very skilled job. Sometimes she creates copy for companies from scratch, sometimes she edits and corrects existing copy. The recent case of the Spurs tube posters being case in point why you can't rely on a designer to check copy! She often sees her copy lifted and reused in other website - companies benefiting from her skills without paying for them. Good copy doesn't come free and wholesale or partial plagiarism of another company's website is theft. It also raises the issue that text should be tailored to your business, copied text might look good at first glance, but can never really reflect your business. I'm sure the plagiarism issue will once again get side stepped, but I hope Rhys will take on board this criticism and act on it. I hope he also takes on board the spirit in which the above comment is made - I have used strong language like theft - but the intention was to do so constructively, not to be defamatory so that positive changes can be made and past mistakes not repeated.

Thanks.

I certainly appreciate the time you've taken to write that. All social media and websites are at the top of the list to deal with and Sophie is getting on with that. To be honest, I have been so busy, websites have been overlooked and made with a 'that'll do attitude'. Something that won't happen in the future.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks.

I certainly appreciate the time you've taken to write that. All social media and websites are at the top of the list to deal with and Sophie is getting on with that. To be honest, I have been so busy, websites have been overlooked and made with a 'that'll do attitude'. Something that won't happen in the future.

Fair enough (even though that wasn't aimed at me) :)
 

ARN556B

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Morecambe
Please, please, please..
This really is getting boring now.

Some on here have no time for Rhys. We know that.
Some on here are determined to find fault in anything he or Phil do or say. We know that too.
If that is you, anybody, we get it. No need to keep on about it.
Rhys may even say that some of the things he's done in the past he wouldn't do again? Who knows?

Can we possibly keep this thread (and the other one) on track, and if you want a conversation that is just about slating Fox group, why not set up a new thread that the rest of us can just ignore?

And for clarity, I've no links with Rhys in any way...

Well said!
 

Swanny200

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Joined
18 Sep 2010
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671
I have commented on the other post and had very reasonable replies from Phil, as an outsider it seems that some people have a problem with Rhys personally and some with how he runs his business. Yes in part I agree that a cut and paste job from another site seems unprofessional but there are many sites out there that are reputable companies that use this method and have had nowhere near the amount of abuse that Rhys and Phil have.

I don't know either of them and to be honest I do not wish to, it is not that I have any opinion of them as I do not know them, I would not ever have to deal with cityfox unless they took over a taxi company in West Wiltshire where I am based so I don't see the need to cast aspersions on others.

No matter what their history, what Rhys has done in the past, it should be staying in the past at the moment, we are unaware of whether or not Phil's experience which is well known has grounded Rhys and made him a better manager/director.

It could just be that Rhys is one of these people who like myself has had businesses before and feel that they simply cannot fail again.

Not everyone is out to make a quick buck by ducking and diving and I can understand that people that have been stung before are a bit apprehensive given Rhys' track record which has been well documented again and again on here.

Why not keep quiet, let Rhys get on with his new venture and if he fails, then you can jump on the bandwagon, all this ringing round companies, digging the dirt will do nothing for anyone apart from affect people's businesses and lets be honest, you may not be just affecting Rhys and Phil, you may be affecting 10's or even hundreds of jobs in the long run by slinging mud around.

As said before, if you have something bad to say, set up a different thread and go there, I'm sure plenty of us will unsubscribe from it.
 

embers25

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1,816
Or as another, I dislike the way codeshares are marketed in the airline industry. The idea is solid, but they tend to hide who is actually operating the flight a bit. For example Flybe codeshare with BA - and the former have quite a different approach to operations, punctuality and general service from the latter.

Actually BA have come down to almost below Fly"Maybe"s level. Unless you pay higher fares they both charge for seats, bags and food and have check in times, customer service, seat pitch and interior comfort levels on a par or often worse than Ryanair. All the frills are now gone and the punctuality of both is worse than Ryanair. Apart from Frequent Flyer miles there is very little benefit to flying either BA or Flybe now and there is certainly little to choose between them as they both race to the bottom of the pile.
 

BestWestern

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6,736
Why on earth not? Snowdonia has a valid Operator's Licence and could very easily operate vehicles at just a day or two'a notice if the circumstances were right, so it seems perfectly in order to me to reflect that capability.

Being pedantic, I'd have to suggest that "Your vehicle will be operated by" is a more powerful statement than "may be operated by". Presumably if I called to hire a coach next week, there is a better than 50/50 chance that it wouldn't in fact be operated by either of the two subsidiaries, as investing in the purchase of appropriare hardware on the back of a single private hire would be a rather odd way to run the business.

Perhaps something along the lines of "We work with selected partners to provide you with the very best vehicles and service, including fellow CityFox Group operators X and Y", may be less committal? After all, a diligent intending customer may Google the named suppliers, and draw their own conclusions? I don't fancy that OmniCity as luxury transport... ;)
 
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RhysHand

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Being pedantic, I'd have to suggest that "Your vehicle will be operated by" is a more powerful statement than "may be operated by". Presumably if I called to hire a coach next week, there is a better than 50/50 chance that it wouldn't in fact be operated by either of the two subsidiaries, as investing in the purchase of appropriare hardware on the back of a single private hire would be a rather odd way to run the business.

Perhaps something along the lines of "We work with selected partners to provide you with the very best vehicles and service, including fellow CityFox Group operators X and Y", may be less committal? After all, a diligent intending customer may Google the named suppliers, and draw their own conclusions? I don't fancy that OmniCity as luxury transport... ;)

Appreciate your comments but I think as we have both pointed out, we are aware of our website issues and they are being/have been dealt with. But I will chase this with our marketing guru.

Like I have also said, the business has the ability to purchase vehicles whenever it needs to or whenever it feels there is increased demand (be bus, coach or taxi). Individuals on here may express their opinion how I run my business but that is simply their opinion.
 

richw

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We've seen it when various operators go bust around the country, and other operators get in leased buses often within 24 hours, so I am without doubt if Rhys had a lucrative private hire he could lease a vehicle in similar timescales if he had drivers and any other legal requirements in place.
 

BestWestern

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We've seen it when various operators go bust around the country, and other operators get in leased buses often within 24 hours, so I am without doubt if Rhys had a lucrative private hire he could lease a vehicle in similar timescales if he had drivers and any other legal requirements in place.

Is there such a thing as a 'lucrative' private hire these days if you are the average small-scale coach operator? It would be nice to think so, but the reality in many cases appears to be that the work is more along the lines of 'pays the bills'. Whilst leasing may be an option, that is very different to hiring vehicles here and there just to cover a day's work - a policy which, I would imagine, is highly unlikely to leave any room for profit.

Is the intention to await the first private hire job and then commence a lease in anticipation of further business being forthcoming? I'm genuinely interested.
 

RhysHand

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Is there such a thing as a 'lucrative' private hire these days if you are the average small-scale coach operator? It would be nice to think so, but the reality in many cases appears to be that the work is more along the lines of 'pays the bills'. Whilst leasing may be an option, that is very different to hiring vehicles here and there just to cover a day's work - a policy which, I would imagine, is highly unlikely to leave any room for profit.

Is the intention to await the first private hire job and then commence a lease in anticipation of further business being forthcoming? I'm genuinely interested.

While I can understand the question, I think you're in danger of over analysing our position.

I don't think we would ever suggest that we would hire a vehicle each and every time we get a booking. However, with the backing of a profitable taxi operation we are in the position to be able to test the water, rather than having to take an all or nothing gamble by speculatively acquiring assets that may or may not prove to be well suited to market needs.

We understand that the private hire market is difficult and that many operators are in precisely the situation you have described but that's all the more reason why we feel the prudent approach is to introduce ourselves cautiously to the market, so that we don't have to worry about 'paying the bills'.
 

BestWestern

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While I can understand the question, I think you're in danger of over analysing our position.

I don't think we would ever suggest that we would hire a vehicle each and every time we get a booking. However, with the backing of a profitable taxi operation we are in the position to be able to test the water, rather than having to take an all or nothing gamble by speculatively acquiring assets that may or may not prove to be well suited to market needs.

We understand that the private hire market is difficult and that many operators are in precisely the situation you have described but that's all the more reason why we feel the prudent approach is to introduce ourselves cautiously to the market, so that we don't have to worry about 'paying the bills'.

If the business fails, you should head straight into politics old chap! An excellent answer, which diverts superbly away from the question! :lol:

But in all seriousness, how you would service a private hire booking, bearing in mind that you are advertising a private hire service, surely isn't 'over analysing'? I mean, I assume you've thought about what you will actually do when a booking arrives? I'm not getting the relevance of the taxi bit, unless you're planning to send a flotilla of those instead of a coach! :D

So if I want a vehicle next thursday for 45 students, going from A to B and back again....where's it coming from?
 
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PhilStockley

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If you ask for a 45 seater vehicle next Thursday, we would probably put you in touch with some operators who could help you. Or if you preferred, we could organise it for you but obviously we'd add a mark up.

If you ask for a 45 seater for a repeat booking every day or for a regular job, that may influence us towards getting a vehicle.

Similarly if we find ourselves entertaining repeated requests for a similar type of vehicle, that may also influence our thoughts.

The point is that between a fleet of taxis, the capability to acquire vehicles ourselves and the ability to work with other operators, we have the capability to respond to requests for group movements, therefore why shouldn't we advertise that?

There is no fixed template that dictates how we would respond to every permutation of people and dates. Instead, we want to be responsive to the widest possible range of challenges that people could throw at us. But at all times we will be clear and transparent with enquirers about what they are getting.
 

BestWestern

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The point is that between a fleet of taxis, the capability to acquire vehicles ourselves and the ability to work with other operators, we have the capability to respond to requests for group movements, therefore why shouldn't we advertise that?

There is no fixed template that dictates how we would respond to every permutation of people and dates. Instead, we want to be responsive to the widest possible range of challenges that people could throw at us. But at all times we will be clear and transparent with enquirers about what they are getting.

No reason you shouldn't advertise it at all. I do think, though, that a very direct statement that "Your vehicle will be provided by X or Y", when that simply isn't the case, is both misleading and potentially brand damaging. If somebody books a coach with you, and it then arrives in the livery of somebody else, a customer might question that. Particularly so if the provider is a fairly local firm (logical) of whom they are already aware. They may wrongly form the opinion that your business is part of their business.

I look at booking a coach with Firm A. Their website says my coach will be provided by Firm B or Firm C. When it arrives, it is actually from Firm X. Many punters may not care. Some will. Some might ask why have they paid Firm A to book a coach from Firm X, and could they have had it cheaper had they gone to that company directly?

If you do indeed intend to be 'clear and transparent' with those who wish to book, and I don't doubt that at all, then the "Your coach will be provided by..." line is pointless - you will be contradicting yourself at every customer interaction. That isn't a great start for somebody at the enquiry stage. If on the other hand they weren't informed, then that is not being clear or transparent. That isn't great either. In either case, that statement on the website wants ammending!
 
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RhysHand

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No reason you shouldn't advertise it at all. I do think, though, that a very direct statement that "Your vehicle will be provided by X or Y", when that simply isn't the case, is both misleading and potentially brand damaging. If somebody books a coach with you, and it then arrives in the livery of somebody else, a customer might question that. Particularly so if the provider is a fairly local firm (logical) of whom they are already aware. They may wrongly form the opinion that your business is part of their business.

I look at booking a coach with Firm A. Their website says my coach will be provided by Firm B or Firm C. When it arrives, it is actually from Firm X. Many punters may not care. Some will. Some might ask why have they paid Firm A to book a coach from Firm X, and could they have had it cheaper had they gone to that company directly?

If you do indeed intend to be 'clear and transparent' with those who wish to book, and I don't doubt that at all, then the "Your coach will be provided by..." line is pointless - you will be contradicting yourself at every customer interaction. That isn't a great start for somebody at the enquiry stage. If on the other hand they weren't informed, then that is not being clear or transparent. That isn't great either. In either case, that statement on the website wants ammending!

I think I have already said more than once now that our websites and social media are currently being dealt with.

Thanks for your advice.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm sure phil has told us they're focusing on the taxi side for the tire y time, and no plans for stage service at this time.

To be fair to Phil, he did say "The Group has an operators licence in Wales but no current PSV Operations, and none specifically planned at the present time. There was a move towards commercial night bus operation which was linked to the likely availability of some day time work. This didn't subsequently materialise so we've put the night bus on hold because the licensing and financial implications of running such an operation on a standalone basis don't really stack up at the moment. That doesn't mean we won't return to the idea in the future, and everything can change with one phone call - opportunities come and go all the time. So I don't offer any warranty that this information will remain true for any specific period of time!"

That said, think it's equally fair to say it's unusual to buy a vehicle, paint it and prepare for service (with the expense associated with that), use it for two days and then advertise it for sale. The purchase may have been in the expectation of securing work but I would be getting that signed up first before obtaining a vehicle.
 
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PhilStockley

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But wouldn't you consider the possibility that having painted it up and done various other bits of improvement work, you might actually get more for it than you paid?

That seems to be an entirely common approach, not just with buses but cars, property etc, and nobody seems to think it that odd...

Not saying we necessarily will sell it, but everything has its price...!
 

BestWestern

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But wouldn't you consider the possibility that having painted it up and done various other bits of improvement work, you might actually get more for it than you paid?

That seems to be an entirely common approach, not just with buses but cars, property etc, and nobody seems to think it that odd...

Not saying we necessarily will sell it, but everything has its price...!

I'd think a low seating capacity, dual door motor would be an odd choice for that sort of investment! ;)

I'm not sure how painting and signwriting it in your livery increases a vehicle's value to potential buyers? Just silver might have worked... Or is the blue bit vinyl? It's a smart livery, I like the branding. A definite 'big group' feel to it.
 
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RhysHand

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I'd think a low seating capacity, dual door motor would be an odd choice for that sort of investment! ;)

I'm not sure how painting and signwriting it in your livery increases a vehicle's value to potential buyers? Just silver might have worked... Or is the blue bit vinyl? It's a smart livery, I like the branding. A definite 'big group' feel to it.

To be fair, it cost nothing more than £40! and if this is where I want to invest my money, I shall do so.
 

BestWestern

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To be fair, it cost nothing more than £40! and if this is where I want to invest my money, I shall do so.

It was already silver and you had the front end vinylled? ;)

*I wonder, is 'vinylled' a word...?! :lol:
 

ChrisPJ

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Would have thought that serial collector of tired old Scanias, Connexions Buses would have snapped this one up!

What happened to the MAN?
 
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