Class 158s : air con, scandalously still poor.

[317666]

I had 158846 on Saturday and was surprised to find the air conditioning working quite well - it's certainly the first EMT one I've been on with it working!

Even then though, it wasn't as nice temperature-wise as 156429 from Liverpool to Manchester, with all windows open there was a lovely breeze down the coach. I find that the 158s with broken air-con generally are fine if the guard opens the windows.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So did HST coaches also use R12 in their air conditioning systems originally?

Most definitely.

 

[fgwrich]

From ATW This evening via facebook.

Apology: Air conditioning system fitted to our class 158.

We are aware of defects with the air conditioning system fitted to our class 158 fleet and apologise for any discomfort experienced recently as a result. We are currently delivering a £0.5m investment in upgrading the air conditioning system fitted to this fleet to make it more reliable. We are aware of some technical issues highlighted with the upgraded system in the current hot weather and are working closely with the vehicle owners and manufacturer of the air conditioning system to resolve these problems.

Matthew Prosser
Fleet Director

If you would like to contact us about air conditioning on our trains, please contact us here www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ContactUs/

 

[BestWestern]

So why, in 23 years. have they not done so.......

It just isn't a priority, sadly. Despite our seemingly increasingly hot summers, Britain in general just doesn't seem to be able to grasp that this can now, sometimes, be a hot place.

Only one TOC that I know of, that being SWT, seems to have taken the issue seriously enough to put significant effort into rectifying the problem. Every other fleet operating 158 units, and various others with similar problems, doesn't appear to view the matter as being of any importance. Some say EMT are good too, and being a fellow Stagecoach firm one could imagine that might be true, but then others say their fleet is no better than anybody else's.

From an operator's point of view, pax will likely travel anyhow and it's cheaper to dish out little bottles of water than to undertake a major investment in equipment and get the kit working properly. Just fob off the staff for the few hot months we get each year, then once it gets cold again all the fault bookings and the moans disappear and we can forget about until next time...

It's a great shame since a decent 158 is a nice train to travel in.

 

[WillPS]

EMT haven't changed *any* of the air con systems in their 158s. The ex-Central units are the ones with decent Air Con.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Scotrails 158 are suffering terribly this year. Drove 6 different sets yesterday - 1 cool coach. The saloon temperature on the micropac was reading over 36 degrees and 1 of them said "feverish!" I don't know whats happened to them this year but its very poor indeed.

was hoping yourself or someboddy else from SR Would pop in, agreed entirely to the point where Id prefer a 170 to turn up, not something that happens v often as there not my favourite by any means!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
whats a bit worrying is that untill lately SR could be c6unted on for good 158 air con. Think an emails due, esp as I was on a Northern set from Kirkgate to leeds last Sat which was nice and cool!

 

[CC 72100]

Sorry this is a little off topic - does anyone know if FGW have currently got an on-hire 158 from SWT or EMT like last year? Will be out and about on a couple of days next week, using the 09:19 Cheltenham - Swindon service on Thursday.

TIA

 

[jimm]

It just isn't a priority, sadly. Despite our seemingly increasingly hot summers, Britain in general just doesn't seem to be able to grasp that this can now, sometimes, be a hot place.

Which increasingly hot summers would these be? Last year, for example? In the general scheme of things, what we have seen in the past couple of weeks remain very much exceptional weather conditions.

Come January, I expect someone will be starting a thread saying that such and such a train's air conditioning is set too cold for the winter... the old a/c system on the 166s was prone to breaking down in extreme cold, as well as extreme heat.

 

[paul1609]

It just isn't a priority, sadly. Despite our seemingly increasingly hot summers, Britain in general just doesn't seem to be able to grasp that this can now, sometimes, be a hot place.

Only one TOC that I know of, that being SWT, seems to have taken the issue seriously enough to put significant effort into rectifying the problem. Every other fleet operating 158 units, and various others with similar problems, doesn't appear to view the matter as being of any importance. Some say EMT are good too, and being a fellow Stagecoach firm one could imagine that might be true, but then others say their fleet is no better than anybody else's.

From an operator's point of view, pax will likely travel anyhow and it's cheaper to dish out little bottles of water than to undertake a major investment in equipment and get the kit working properly. Just fob off the staff for the few hot months we get each year, then once it gets cold again all the fault bookings and the moans disappear and we can forget about until next time...

It's a great shame since a decent 158 is a nice train to travel in.

Although not an operator of class 158s Southern seem to treat HVAC very seriously they even publish the status of every coach on their website monthly http://storage.railtechsolutions.co.uk/Southern/377-HVAC.pdf

 

[scotraildriver]

It is actually possible to reset the Leibherr system to cooling by tripping and resetting a couple of hidden circuit breakers but such action isn't really allowed so it just gets switched off by guards instead. (But a fitter showed me so that's good enough - I'm doing it!)

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry this is a little off topic - does anyone know if FGW have currently got an on-hire 158 from SWT or EMT like last year? Will be out and about on a couple of days next week, using the 09:19 Cheltenham - Swindon service on Thursday.

TIA

Already discussed on Forum and I have resurrected today just to clear something up. It is on Alterations, Diagrams and Timings board so now back on topic.

 

[elboobio]

Thought I'd throw a few facts and thoughts your way see if it helps your understanding.

The air conditioning system on 158 units is as some people mentioned in previous posts installed and made by an external company, generally Liebherr. Depots don't do any maintenance, fitting or replacement of the air con units. So if the air con isn't particularly great on that unit, it will be like that until it completely breaks and Liebherr comes out to replace the system.

Surprisingly the Liebherr system is actually quite sophisticated (for a 24 year old train) and works the same as climate control in your car, sensors are fitted throughout the saloon to regulate the temperature. Unfortunately they are positioned right above the hopper windows and so if the windows are opened and the air con not isolated it actually blows out warm air!

There is a feed pipe from the air con fed in to the driving cab, so if it is hot guaranteed the driver/guard will do everything in their power to get it to work (unfortunately not all of them are told exactly how the system works, so most of the time they try resetting the system but that is about their limit).

I like the way someone said 'just put more hopper windows in' but let's get realistic, they're not going to waste perfectly good windows just for the convenience of passengers for a few weeks in the summer. Plus the only way to open/close them is with a T key and no guard wishes to walk through closing/opening more windows than he has to.

To summarise there will be no quick (if any) fix to this and it will be hot on any busy train regardless of how good the air con system is. But I would still prefer to be on a 158 in 30 degree sunshine than a 142, some of which the heating system can not be isolated!!!!

 

[Justin Smith]

I like the way someone said 'just put more hopper windows in' but let's get realistic, they're not going to waste perfectly good windows just for the convenience of passengers for a few weeks in the summer. Plus the only way to open/close them is with a T key and no guard wishes to walk through closing/opening more windows than he has to.

It's more than a few weeks that the non working air con leads to an excessively warm Class 158, though I accept the kind of temperatures we're having at the moment only occur for a few weeks a year ! But just look what you've said, they're not going to do XXXX for the convenience of passengers, that's incredible really..... Anyway, they frequently waste perfectly good seats "for the convenience of passengers" when doing refurbs so what`s the difference ?
But actually, it's also for the staff, the guard on the sweat box I was on was not a happy bunny at all, and who can blame him ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To summarise there will be no quick (if any) fix to this and it will be hot on any busy train regardless of how good the air con system is. But I would still prefer to be on a 158 in 30 degree sunshine than a 142, some of which the heating system can not be isolated!!!!

I definitely don't agree with that, last week I'd have done anything to be on a Class 142 with all its windows open....

Actually, there are some things about Class 142s I like, the unobstructed views out of the window for instance, and (apart from on the refurbed ones with the high backed seats) a generally more open and less claustrophobic environment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As there is a decent description elsewhere on this forum of the intricacies of the Cl.158 air con systems, is it not a case of the shutdown procedures not being followed rather than any fault with the actual a/c hardware itself?

You haven`t got a link to it have you ?

 

[Rich McLean]

Just heard this, of the travel reporter for free radio BC+Shrop

Travel Tom
Arriva Trains Wales to spend £500K to fix faulty air conditioning on its class 158 trains and apologise for recent discomfort.

Seems things are being done at last

 

[PHILIPE]

As has already been pointed out ATW and others have had 23 years to sort the problem.

 

[BestWestern]

Which increasingly hot summers would these be? Last year, for example? In the general scheme of things, what we have seen in the past couple of weeks remain very much exceptional weather conditions.

Come January, I expect someone will be starting a thread saying that such and such a train's air conditioning is set too cold for the winter... the old a/c system on the 166s was prone to breaking down in extreme cold, as well as extreme heat.

I understand that it is anticipated we shall see more 'extreme' weather in general, which will likely mean hotter weather as well as seasonal wetter weather and suchlike. Let's not have a debate on climate change, this isn't the place for that! The fact is that a/c is poor on these units, it certainly isn't coping at the moment and it doesn't cope most years, and it isn't good enough. Incidentally the 166s are still poor.

 

[jimm]

I understand that it is anticipated we shall see more 'extreme' weather in general, which will likely mean hotter weather as well as seasonal wetter weather and suchlike. Let's not have a debate on climate change, this isn't the place for that! The fact is that a/c is poor on these units, it certainly isn't coping at the moment and it doesn't cope most years, and it isn't good enough. Incidentally the 166s are still poor.

I wasn't starting a debate about climate change, just criticising a vague generalisation about the weather. I can remember summers in the 1970s that were just as hot as this year and plenty of ones that weren't in between.

The root of the problems with the a/c on 158s and 166s is not the weather, it's that BR had to build the the trains to a budget, which clearly wasn't a big enough budget, and in the case of the 166s, also had to cope with it being installed as an after-thought on a train cobbled together by reworking the 165 design. Chiltern, perhaps not surprisingly, took a completely different approach when they decided to retrofit their 165s with a/c.

As for the new 166 system, recent reports suggest that its performance has been rather patchy, with sets running with some coaches where the system has failed and others where it is doing its job perfectly happily.

Over the past couple of winters, it has coped very well with cold conditions, whereas the old one had a nasty habit of packing up at such times of the year - and indeed in spring and autumn - as much as in the summer.

Given where Wabtec started from when trying to improve matters, they have done pretty well and I'm sure will be aiming to learn from the past few weeks, given that last year's not increasingly hot summer did not pose the same challenges as recent weeks.

 

[BestWestern]

The root of the problems with the a/c on 158s and 166s is not the weather, it's that BR had to build the the trains to a budget, which clearly wasn't a big enough budget, and in the case of the 166s, also had to cope with it being installed as an after-thought on a train cobbled together by reworking the 165 design. Chiltern, perhaps not surprisingly, took a completely different approach when they decided to retrofit their 165s with a/c.

I understand that the 'root of the problem' is in fact that the systems were designed and built to operate with chemicals which are no longer available. Somebody has already given the explanation that the current products work less efficiently than the original, hence the problems. Of course, maintenance also plays a big part, and we know that at least one TOC manages to get the air con to work rather well.

I must say I think the insistence by some that the 158 is a badly built train is clearly cobblers. They are 20-odd years old and still going very strong, and are of such a quality that SWT at least manages to present them just as well as any new rolling stock, and in fact happily exchanged nearly brand new Turbostars for more of them. The fact that other operators just run them into the ground is hardly the fault of the train itself, and applies just the same to anything. Where does this idea come from that somehow, despite having been endlessly churning out fleets of perfectly decent new trains for decades, BR got to the end of the 80's and suddenly built a couple of hundred crap DMUs? I think not, they're perfectly solid trains. Is the new stuff any better? A Turbostar, or an Adelante, or a 458? Anyway, rant over!

As for the 166, it's hardly fair to suggest that they were 'cobbled together by reworking the 165 design'. They are two of four different classes of the Networker common design family, along with the 365 and 465. A further, albeit very similar, development of the original 165 build perhaps, but hardly a bodge job!

 

[scotraildriver]

Originally Posted by boing_uk View Post
As there is a decent description elsewhere on this forum of the intricacies of the Cl.158 air con systems, is it not a case of the shutdown procedures not being followed rather than any fault with the actual a/c hardware itself?



Yes, this may contribute to the problem. However, the run down time can be as much as 20 minutes which in the real world is totally impractical. Having to wait 20 minutes for each set to shut down before fuelling and servicing can begin, especially at night with lots of sets on the depot, would more than double the time required to service all the units. Also using the local engine stop can cause problems, but testing this button is part of the train preparation procedure! It is a design which should never have been passed. Totally impractical.

 

[edwin_m]

Where does this idea come from that somehow, despite having been endlessly churning out fleets of perfectly decent new trains for decades, BR got to the end of the 80's and suddenly built a couple of hundred crap DMUs? I think not, they're perfectly solid trains.

When new they were famously described by one BR manager as "garden shed engineering" (though not so famously that can remember who it was that said it!). They were arguably built down to a price by the newly-privatised BREL after the shock of losing the clas 156 order to Metro-Cammell.

However I do agree that they can be made to work well, as shown by SWT in particular, and later designs of train have hardly been paragons of excellence either!

 

[Greenback]

I travel regularly on ATW 175's, 150's and 158's. Without a doubt, the most comfortable environment is, generally, the 175. The 158 is much worse. One conductor said he could not open the windows in stifling heat as the air conditiong wouldn't work. This prompted the reply.

'You mean it's working now?'

No such problems on the 175's!

 

[elboobio]

I work for Northern and the 158's are our best units by far, I tried to post previously some of the reasons the air con isn't always great and why they aren't repaired as often as needed, why we don't "rip out all the windows for new windows with more quarter lights" (idiot) and was shot down in flames. However, the 158's for 24 years old are not bad at all, they do have air con, which even if it doesn't work makes it no worse than the other sprinters and pacers. They have the best ride due to having lateral dampers and shorter, stiffer springs. The seating is much more comfortable in the saloons. They have three toilets for those boozey last trains. And they can run at 90mph rather than 75mph.

And just to follow up to the comment, "I'd rather be on a 142" you are clearly the reason they still exist, instead if we were inundated with complaints eventually the government would have to commission rolling stock to replace them from pressure from the TOC running them, it would take a long time and a lot of complaints but I would much prefer more 158's over pacers or earlier sprinters.

 

[Muzer]

Completely agree.

Given a choice between any BR-era DMU (Networkers included; HSTs don't count ), a 158 would be my choice every time, even if the air con doesn't work and they're not quite as well looked-after as the SWT ones.

 

[Meridian richard]

The 1241 Sheffield to Bridlington Northern 158 had the best air con I have experienced this year in the hot weather, it was like a fridge on board.

 

[jimm]

I understand that the 'root of the problem' is in fact that the systems were designed and built to operate with chemicals which are no longer available. Somebody has already given the explanation that the current products work less efficiently than the original, hence the problems. Of course, maintenance also plays a big part, and we know that at least one TOC manages to get the air con to work rather well.

I must say I think the insistence by some that the 158 is a badly built train is clearly cobblers. They are 20-odd years old and still going very strong, and are of such a quality that SWT at least manages to present them just as well as any new rolling stock, and in fact happily exchanged nearly brand new Turbostars for more of them. The fact that other operators just run them into the ground is hardly the fault of the train itself, and applies just the same to anything. Where does this idea come from that somehow, despite having been endlessly churning out fleets of perfectly decent new trains for decades, BR got to the end of the 80's and suddenly built a couple of hundred crap DMUs? I think not, they're perfectly solid trains. Is the new stuff any better? A Turbostar, or an Adelante, or a 458? Anyway, rant over!

As for the 166, it's hardly fair to suggest that they were 'cobbled together by reworking the 165 design'. They are two of four different classes of the Networker common design family, along with the 365 and 465. A further, albeit very similar, development of the original 165 build perhaps, but hardly a bodge job!

Maybe I should have explained myself more clearly. When I said the trains built to a budget, i specifically had the a/c in mind - given that this thread is about air conditioning - which has been a problem on both types of train for a long time. In the case of the 158/159s the replacement equipment fitted has clearly dealt with most of the problems on the sets that have got it.

In the case of the 166s, some progress has been made with the new set-up but a complete cure it clearly is not. Never mind what chemicals may have been used down the years. And that is because the 166s were cobbled together.

The 165 design was adapted, as best as it could be, in a very short timeframe, but since the a/c was not part of the 165 design, its installation for the 166s inevitably resulted in a lot of compromises, which did nothing for its chances of working reliably.

The interiors also show signs of being cobbled together, with that odd section of 2+2 seating with tables in the centre cars (I'm guessing at some point in the design process this may have been intended to be the first class section on the trains and it was too late to cancel the order for the tables by the time they decided to put first class in the driving car end compartments), but which still has the narrow style of seats used in the 3+2 sections of standard and a mile-wide aisle as a result. And the 3+2 suburban seats are horrid to sit in all the way to Newbury and Worcester or, worse, Malvern or Hereford, but again betray cobbling together in a train that was a compromise between the needs of medium-distance services they were intended for and the suburban role they also have to fulfil at times.

Mechanically they are bombproof, because that aspect of the design was carried over from the 165/1s.

If they ever do displace 158s from Cardiff-Portsmouth, I doubt they will be received with open arms - unless the interiors get a serious makeover with 2+2 seats throughout and utterly reliable a/c installed.

 

[quarella]

The 1241 Sheffield to Bridlington Northern 158 had the best air con I have experienced this year in the hot weather, it was like a fridge on board.

Does that make it the best? For the elderly (and most women I know) who feel the cold that could have been very uncomfortable. It is impossible to achieve a temperature that all will be happy with. However following on from Greenback's post

I travel regularly on ATW 175's, 150's and 158's. Without a doubt, the most comfortable environment is, generally, the 175. The 158 is much worse. One conductor said he could not open the windows in stifling heat as the air conditiong wouldn't work. This prompted the reply.

'You mean it's working now?'

No such problems on the 175's!

The temperature on 175s varies so much depending on your seat and I am not sure whether it is a benefit or a problem. I suppose it depends on whether you can move or not if you want the opposite.

 

[PHILIPE]

Sometimes. I have found a 175 to be quite cold.

 

[CC 72100]

Had 2 158s yesterday - the SWT hire-in, so being an SWT I expected it to deliver on the air con front and duly did.

Then it was a busy 3 car 158 on the Cardiff - Portsmouth. Did see another 158 with windows open, but on this one again the air con was working a treat.

In fact, the only air con failure was on the 67 from Cardiff, ironically the most recently refurbished mark 3. All other mark 3s (FGW + XC) were fine.

 

[edwin_m]

Two failed aircons in a row on the 1728 HST from Swansea yesterday, which was also 20min late for no stated reason other than delay to the incoming service and waiting for a crew member.

 

[CC 72100]

Two failed aircons in a row on the 1728 HST from Swansea yesterday, which was also 20min late for no stated reason other than delay to the incoming service and waiting for a crew member.

Ah, that was the set off the 13:45 Pad - Swansea, which I was going to be on from Bristol Parkway, but the service in front (13:15 to Cardiff) was running sufficiently late that I took that instead. Everything from Didcot - Swindon was late, I didn't realise your incoming train was quite so late, I think it was shown at only ~10 late when I left Bristol Parkway about 15 late on the Cardiff.

The Swansea an hour in front (12:45 Pad - Swansea) left Parkway around an hour late, thought that that one was the worst hit.