Class 165/166 (and other unit's) Driving Techniques

[Kurolus Rex]

Hi all!

The title explains it all really. Which notches are used to pull out from stations? Having the same engines as the Perkins 158s, do they behave similarly or are there some differences?

Thanks for the help!

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all!

The title explains it all really. Which notches are used to pull out from stations? Having the same engines as the Perkins 158s, do they behave similarly or are there some differences?

Thanks for the help!

In an older thread it was said that for starting away Notch 4 was used.

Then Notch 5 once moving, Notch 6 at 5mph and Notch 7 at 10-15mph.

For braking I believe it's Step 2 initial, then down to Step 1 to bring the speed off and stop. Steps 2 and 3 then being used to correct retardation as necessary.

 

[II]

No specific instructions have been given for acceleration, apart from no more than Notch 5 if leaving a station on cautionary aspects. Many will follow the pattern described in the previous post, but there's still plenty who will pretty much go straight to Notch 7 - especially if late. Lower speed acceleration can vary considerably between units.

Braking on GWR is usually Step 1 initially, then 2, or 3 after a while if necessary before coming to a halt in Step 1.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

In an older thread it was said that for starting away Notch 4 was used.

Then Notch 5 once moving, Notch 6 at 5mph and Notch 7 at 10-15mph.

For braking I believe it's Step 2 initial, then down to Step 1 to bring the speed off and stop. Steps 2 and 3 then being used to correct retardation as necessary.

No specific instructions have been given for acceleration, apart from no more than Notch 5 if leaving a station on cautionary aspects. Many will follow the pattern described in the previous post, but there's still plenty who will pretty much go straight to Notch 7 - especially if late. Lower speed acceleration can vary considerably between units.

Braking on GWR is usually Step 1 initially, then 2, or 3 after a while if necessary before coming to a halt in Step 1.

Thanks! I'm well aware there's no specific instructions, was just looking for some rough guidelines.

After doing a bit of digging another technique also might be to start in Notch 4, then go into Notch 5 around 5mph followed shortly after by notches 6 or 7 (line speed permitted). Though of course these are just 2 examples and I've never seen one depart in real life so take that with a grain of salt!

(Last video @12:20)

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks! I'm well aware there's no specific instructions, was just looking for some rough guidelines.

After doing a bit of digging another technique also might be to start in Notch 4, then go into Notch 5 around 5mph followed shortly after by notches 6 or 7 (line speed permitted). Though of course these are just 2 examples and I've never seen one depart in real life so take that with a grain of salt!

(Last video @12:20)

Like so many things, it depends on the driver, who trained the driver, company policy and whether driving under restrictive signals.

Certainly some TOCs seem to have a variance in technique between drivers, others seem to all follow the same policy.

My local TOC, ScotRail seems to be 0-3-5-7 for DMUs and OFF-2-3-4 or equivalent for EMUs and that hardly ever seems to vary.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Like so many things, it depends on the driver, who trained the driver, company policy and whether driving under restrictive signals.

Certainly some TOCs seem to have a variance in technique between drivers, others seem to all follow the same policy.

My local TOC, ScotRail seems to be 0-3-5-7 for DMUs and OFF-2-3-4 or equivalent for EMUs and that hardly ever seems to vary.

Aye. On my local Northern operated line most drivers don't seem to go above Notch 4 with their 158s until the train has cleared the platform where as other drivers will take a 3-5-7 approach when departing stations. Certainly lots of variance.

 

[Llama]

Depends on the engine type on the 158 too.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Depends on the engine type on the 158 too.

Aye, hence why i specified Perkins 158s. At any rate though even the Perkins 158s don't go above Notch 4 while in the station most of the time on my line, they just start in Notch 4 or go into Notch 4 faster than the Cummins units tend to. There's already another thread about that here though so best not to get side tracked.

 

[trainmania100]

I usually go to maximum throttle on train simulator for maximum acceleration and timetable performance

 

[hexagon789]

I usually go to maximum throttle on train simulator for maximum acceleration and timetable performance

Train simulator is not the real world though

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Train simulator is not the real world though

Yes - The TS model's physics are completely off. Crawls at a snail pace even at full throttle at first but then will out accelerate a HST past 10mph up until at least 60mph. Hell, the TS model doesn't even have passenger view engine sounds which should say something..

 

[hexagon789]

Yes - The TS model's physics are completely off. Crawls at a snail pace even at full throttle at first but then will out accelerate a HST past 10mph up until at least 60mph. Hell, the TS model doesn't even have passenger view engine sounds which should say something..

Lots of them are "off", DMUs in particular seem to lock at a certain speed in certain power notches instead of varying depending on a variety of factors.

Coasting is generally rubbish and braking especially for tread braked units, wildly off. To say nothing of the lack of simulation of poor rail conditions and some equipment.

Mind you, many drivers have stated they find even the official company simulator to be unrealistic - so what can you do?

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Lots of them are "off", DMUs in particular seem to lock at a certain speed in certain power notches instead of varying depending on a variety of factors.

Coasting is generally rubbish and braking especially for tread braked units, wildly off. To say nothing of the lack of simulation of poor rail conditions and some equipment.

Mind you, many drivers have stated they find even the official company simulator to be unrealistic - so what can you do?

Aye, when it comes to TS you have to rely entirely on third party sources like AP if you want something to look, sound and feel like the train you're driving. DTG are great when it comes to visuals (at least recently anyways) but are way off when it comes to sounds and physics (Train Sim World being a prime example). Unfortunately though Enhancement Packs are few and far between so you just have to use what you get.

 

[hexagon789]

Aye, when it comes to TS you have to rely entirely on third party sources like AP if you want something to look, sound and feel like the train you're driving. DTG are great when it comes to visuals (at least recently anyways) but are way off when it comes to sounds and physics (Train Sim World being a prime example). Unfortunately though Enhancement Packs are few and far between so you just have to use what you get.

Well that's it, but even the best simulation can't give the true feel of a steel wheel on a steel rail!

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Well that's it, but even the best simulation can't give the true feel of a steel wheel on a steel rail!

Of course. Even AP's products aren't flawless; far too much wheelslip on the 158s during the Autumn and Winter to the point where you can't even go above Notch 3 in a station without the WSP kicking in. Not a driver ofc but i never recall seeing 158s have this problem in real life so it seems very exaggerated. But we can't all drive trains unfortunately, hence why these games exist. Bugger something up and it doesn't matter in TS.

Back on topic though: In this video the driver seems to follow more or less the technique you described, so yes, it is really just down to the driver. Again i must reiterate: i'm not looking for an absolute standard or anything, just want to know what some of the various techniques are.

 

[hexagon789]

Back on topic though: In this video the driver seems to follow more or less the technique you described, so yes, it is really just down to the driver. Again i must reiterate: i'm not looking for an absolute standard or anything, just want to know what some of the various techniques are.

Funnily enough, I've wanted to know the techniques as well, which is why I posted threads asking about them in the past.

If you haven't seen it already, there is a long and detailed past thread on this forum - "Questions about driving trains", which contains a variety of driving techniques.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Funnily enough, I've wanted to know the techniques as well, which is why I posted threads asking about them in the past.

If you haven't seen it already, there is a long and detailed past thread on this forum - "Questions about driving trains", which contains a variety of driving techniques.

I think I've seen a thread like that yes, only problem is it's usually only 1 comment in a massive thread, so it's nice to have a thread specifically for a certain train. I already looked up "class 165/166 driving technique" on this forum before making this thread and couldn't find anything so i decided to make this thread. Just more specific and also less hassle for people looking for the same thing in the future.

 

[hexagon789]

I think I've seen a thread like that yes, only problem is it's usually only 1 comment in a massive thread, so it's nice to have a thread specifically for a certain train. I already looked up "class 165/166 driving technique" on this forum before making this thread and couldn't find anything so i decided to make this thread. Just more specific and also less hassle for people looking for the same thing in the future.

Admittedly that thread discussed as varied subjects as having CD players in cabs and why Mk3 DVTs "fart"!

 

[Johncleesefan]

As a general rule it’s straight to notch 4 to build the revs. Then release the hill start brake and into notch 5 to begin moving. Notch 6 at 5mph and notch 7 at 10mph.
Braking in step 2 initial and back to 1. (3 where needed)
I find that even though they have disc brakes they act a lot more like tread brakes.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Admittedly that thread discussed as varied subjects as having CD players in cabs and why Mk3 DVTs "fart"!

Hahaha, not surprising for this forum..

As a general rule it’s straight to notch 4 to build the revs. Then release the hill start brake and into notch 5 to begin moving. Notch 6 at 5mph and notch 7 at 10mph.
Braking in step 2 initial and back to 1. (3 where needed)
I find that even though they have disc brakes they act a lot more like tread brakes.

Thanks for the info! How does the hill brake work exactly? Is it separate from the throttle/brake lever?

Also, i'm guessing you've driven these units in real life?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As a general rule it’s straight to notch 4 to build the revs.

As a passenger you notice that they rev the engine before moving. Is that something to do with building pressure for the braking system? How similar is the system of transmitting power to that of a car, lorry or bus, in other words they need to engage a clutch or equivalent to move? They don't have electric motors like locomotives or Voyagers.

 

[FGW_DID]

Is it separate from the throttle/brake lever?

It’s a push button on the side of the Power / Brake Controller handle.

 

[hexagon789]

Hahaha, not surprising for this forum..

I know right!

Thanks for the info! How does the hill brake work exactly? Is it separate from the throttle/brake lever?

On units with a combined Traction/Brake Controller, there is a button on the side of the controller which allows Step 1 braking to be naintained while power is applied. The prevents the train rolling back on an incline when the brakes are released.

As a passenger you notice that they rev the engine before moving. Is that something to do with building pressure for the braking system?

Simply to do with how the transmission works. The engine revs up when power is first applied as there is a delay between the engine revving up and the Torque Convertor filling with oil, after which the engine revs settle. This delay is also why with many units they don't accelerate immediately as power is applied.

 

[hwl]

I know right!



On units with a combined Traction/Brake Controller, there is a button on the side of the controller which allows Step 1 braking to be naintained while power is applied. The prevents the train rolling back on an incline when the brakes are released.



Simply to do with how the transmission works. The engine revs up when power is first applied as there is a delay between the engine revving up and the Torque Convertor filling with oil, after which the engine revs settle. This delay is also why with many units they don't accelerate immediately as power is applied.

The torque converter efficiency is poor at low speed so poor initial acceleration.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

It’s a push button on the side of the Power / Brake Controller handle.

I know right!



On units with a combined Traction/Brake Controller, there is a button on the side of the controller which allows Step 1 braking to be naintained while power is applied. The prevents the train rolling back on an incline when the brakes are released.



Simply to do with how the transmission works. The engine revs up when power is first applied as there is a delay between the engine revving up and the Torque Convertor filling with oil, after which the engine revs settle. This delay is also why with many units they don't accelerate immediately as power is applied.

Ah, i always wondered what that little red button on the handle was, thanks for clarifying! Also explains why you can hear that brake release sound even after power has been applied. While on topic, do 158s have anything similar? I often hear them releasing brakes once up to speed when departing stations: do these units have something similar or is just the driver applying brakes using the brake lever?

 

[hexagon789]

Ah, i always wondered what that little red button on the handle was, thanks for clarifying! Also explains why you can hear that brake release sound even after power has been applied. While on topic, do 158s have anything similar? I often hear them releasing brakes once up to speed when departing stations: do these units have something similar or is just the driver applying brakes using the brake lever?

They don't have a hill-start button as 158s have seperate power and brake controllers.

You can just leave the brake handle in Step 1 and move the power handle to however much power you need, let the engine rev-up, feel the unit wanting to move, then release the brakes and move off.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

They don't have a hill-start button as 158s have seperate power and brake controllers.

You can just leave the brake handle in Step 1 and move the power handle to however much power you need, let the engine rev-up, feel the unit wanting to move, then release the brakes and move off.

That's what i assumed yes, but sometimes i see them release brakes when moving whilst still leaving the station. It's not as if they're releasing them once the revs have built. At any rate though it's a minor detail, i'm sure there's some reason for it.

 

[Llama]

I often hear them releasing brakes once up to speed when departing stations: do these units have something similar or is just the driver applying brakes using the brake lever?

If the unit is already moving that's likely to be the unloader valve venting main res air, nothing to do with brake application/release. As the engine revs higher when starting away, after idling for a minute or two sat at a station, the engine-driven compressors obviously work that bit harder so by proxy there is more likelihood of the main res pressure reaching the threshold where the unloader valve opens to dump air.

 

[hexagon789]

That's what i assumed yes, but sometimes i see them release brakes when moving whilst still leaving the station. It's not as if they're releasing them once the revs have built. At any rate though it's a minor detail, i'm sure there's some reason for it.

If the train is on level or downhill track, there's no real need for power to build before releasing the brakes as I see it, only when starting uphill to ensure the train doesn't roll backwards.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

If the unit is already moving that's likely to be the unloader valve venting main res air, nothing to do with brake application/release. As the engine revs higher when starting away, after idling for a minute or two sat at a station, the engine-driven compressors obviously work that bit harder so by proxy there is more likelihood of the main res pressure reaching the threshold where the unloader valve opens to dump air.

Ah, that makes sense. Certainly explains some videos of rather noisy 158s I've seen venting air. Relief to know it's nothing to do with the brakes

Slightly off topic but, how heavily is Step 2 used? Obviously in real life i assume you use landmarks for braking points but is it still used lots right before entering the platform or is it down to Step 1 by that point?

Thanks again for the amazing info!