Class 170 First Class

Status
Not open for further replies.

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,376
Location
Milton Keynes
I was wondering about the Class 170s when Central Trains was split up into Cross Country and London Midland. The XC units have first class areas but the LM ones don't. Did the Central Trains units have first class compartments? Did the XC ones gain them or did the LM ones lose them?

I'm also curious about the Midland Mainline ones.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
5,760
I was wondering about the Class 170s when Central Trains was split up into Cross Country and London Midland. The XC units have first class areas but the LM ones don't. Did the Central Trains units have first class compartments? Did the XC ones gain them or did the LM ones lose them?

I'm also curious about the Midland Mainline ones.

The Central 170/5 and 170/6 were standard class only. Some of the already inadequate amount of standard class seating was further reduced when XC took over some of the units after "Central" was abolished, and wasted some space on first class areas.

The MML 170/1s had first class when built.
 

sonic2009

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2010
Messages
4,334
Location
Crewe
If I remember before the franchise split, the units that Central received from Midland Mainline had first class compartments but they were declassified, there was a substantial fleet refurbishment when XC and LM took over, so I believe most of the 170s have had first class compartments but they would have been changed to suit operator requirements.
 
Joined
9 Apr 2016
Messages
1,909
I have always thought that the LM 170s should have a 1st class section. Especially as they are used on quite long distance journeys from Birmingham New Street to Hereford and Shrewsbury.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
28,148
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
I have always thought that the LM 170s should have a 1st class section. Especially as they are used on quite long distance journeys from Birmingham New Street to Hereford and Shrewsbury.

I could say the same about the lack of a first class section on the Class 175 trains that run from Manchester to the far flung reaches of South Wales that do exist after Cardiff Central.
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,325
I could say the same about the lack of a first class section on the Class 175 trains that run from Manchester to the far flung reaches of South Wales that do exist after Cardiff Central.

There was a render of plans to put a first class section in the 175s, can't remember who made it though and whether it will progress further.

EDIT: It was from Schoeneman Design - link
 
Last edited:

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
3,651
Location
Back in Sussex
I was wondering about the Class 170s when Central Trains was split up into Cross Country and London Midland. The XC units have first class areas but the LM ones don't. Did the Central Trains units have first class compartments? Did the XC ones gain them or did the LM ones lose them?

I'm also curious about the Midland Mainline ones.

The MML 170s had the 1st class at both ends behind the driving cab, about as 1st class as a telephone kiosk. When 170101-110 had their centre coaches delivered 1st class was moved to that coach, with quite decent seating actually, and the old 1st class declassified, 170111-117 remained as two car with the old 1st class
 

Prestige15

Member
Joined
6 Aug 2016
Messages
364
Location
Warrington
I could say the same about the lack of a first class section on the Class 175 trains that run from Manchester to the far flung reaches of South Wales that do exist after Cardiff Central.

Could say the same to 158's as they run long distance aswell such as Holyhead - Birmingham
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,540
Location
Nottingham
The MML 170s had the 1st class at both ends behind the driving cab, about as 1st class as a telephone kiosk. When 170101-110 had their centre coaches delivered 1st class was moved to that coach, with quite decent seating actually, and the old 1st class declassified, 170111-117 remained as two car with the old 1st class

The first class in the centre coaches had really huge seats, same as the Anglia ones I think. There was also a buffet counter.

After all that, the 222s displaced 170101-117 from Midland Mainline to Central Trains who changed nothing other than applying some rather desultory vinyls. Both types of First Class seating must have remained in declassified form until the refurbishment by XC.
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,325
Those actually have First Class but it is declassified (and barely different from Standard).

Technically not any more since First lost the franchise. Worse than standard class - Less table space especially on window seats (lamp in the way) and curtains in your face. Could be doing with a decent 2+1 arrangement of 9 seats on all units in my opinion.

Not to get off topic or anything.
 

chubs

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2012
Messages
620
The first class in the centre coaches had really huge seats, same as the Anglia ones I think. There was also a buffet counter.

The Anglian ones had the buffet too. Well the 3 car at least.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
7,041
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
The Anglian ones had the buffet too. Well the 3 car at least.

The Hull batch certainly did, and still does. Albeit not in use with ScotRail and despite the refurbishment, still remains in place. Did they ever see use in Scotland?
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    101.5 KB · Views: 155

chubs

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2012
Messages
620
The Hull batch certainly did, and still does. Albeit not in use with ScotRail and despite the refurbishment, still remains in place. Did they ever see use in Scotland?

Are these ever used?

Surprised they weren't stripped out like the Anglian ones.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,967
The Hull batch certainly did, and still does. Albeit not in use with ScotRail and despite the refurbishment, still remains in place. Did they ever see use in Scotland?
As I recall, both the huge green seats - declassified in the centre section of the end coach - and buffet saw brief use on Scotrail before they were refurbed into Standard Class only units. The buffets are still there but the carriage is filled entirely with regular Scotrail Standard Class seats.

I'm really trawling my memory here, but I think the intention was to use the ex Hull units on Glasgow and Edinburgh to Inverness trains. I did once see a buffet in use on an evening Edinburgh to Inverness train around 2007. I suspect that it proved too difficult to keep a tiny sub class on that route and they gave up.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,618
Location
Macclesfield
I travelled on one of the ex-Hull Trains units on an Inverness to Edinburgh service in the summer of 2006 and, while it wasn't something I particularly took note of, my recollection is that the buffet was not in use at the time.
 

MrCub

Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
256
Location
SE England
Oh the days of the MML 170s when MML would issue out free tea and coffee to everyone. I used to commute from Nottingham to Leicester and there was a group of us who always had the same seats and the buffet stewards were so familiar with us that they'd have the tea and coffee at the ready. I actually miss those commutes.
 
Joined
9 Feb 2009
Messages
807
The large first class seats were also fitted to 170397/398 along with their white livery and Central Trains moquette. They are still non standard as they have chapman seating...
 

dk1

Established Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
10,247
Location
East Anglia
The 1st class seating was stripped out of the middle section of 170201-8 at the same time the buffet was removed in 2005 by NX (one) & this created quite an uplift in standard class seating. Not sure what happened to the 190 or so seats that where removed from the 50 vehicles as these are some of the most comfortable first class seats ever used.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,540
Location
Nottingham
The 1st class seating was stripped out of the middle section of 170201-8 at the same time the buffet was removed in 2005 by NX (one) & this created quite an uplift in standard class seating. Not sure what happened to the 190 or so seats that where removed from the 50 vehicles as these are some of the most comfortable first class seats ever used.

I actually found them less comfortable, which goes to show how people's views may differ on this subject! They looked very inviting, but were actually quite hard and I found myself sliding down and slumping into the seat. First Class on the Transpennine 158s was much better.
 

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,376
Location
Milton Keynes
Thanks everyone for the replies. So did the ex MML 3-car ones lose that central first class area and gain an end of carriage one when XC took over?

The XC first class section always seems quite pitiful to me.

It's not really relevant to this discussion but I can never see any pattern to how XC assign their 2/3 car units. The Leicester local service will be near empty if it's 3 car and the Stansted one will be full and standing if it's 2.
 
Joined
9 Apr 2016
Messages
1,909
Oh the days of the MML 170s when MML would issue out free tea and coffee to everyone. I used to commute from Nottingham to Leicester and there was a group of us who always had the same seats and the buffet stewards were so familiar with us that they'd have the tea and coffee at the ready. I actually miss those commutes.

Those were the good old days. I much prefered the 170s to the 222s/HSTs.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,540
Location
Nottingham
Thanks everyone for the replies. So did the ex MML 3-car ones lose that central first class area and gain an end of carriage one when XC took over?

Yes.

The XC first class section always seems quite pitiful to me.

I don't suppose may people use it unless connecting to or from a Voyager for a longer journey, or on a staff pass.

It's not really relevant to this discussion but I can never see any pattern to how XC assign their 2/3 car units. The Leicester local service will be near empty if it's 3 car and the Stansted one will be full and standing if it's 2.

They are difficult to diagram because of the need to cope with peaks at different times and places along the route, particularly Birmingham.
 

TheBigD

Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,063
The 1st class seating was stripped out of the middle section of 170201-8 at the same time the buffet was removed in 2005 by NX (one) & this created quite an uplift in standard class seating. Not sure what happened to the 190 or so seats that where removed from the 50 vehicles as these are some of the most comfortable first class seats ever used.

The seats were reused in 159101-8...
 

the101

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2015
Messages
325
I don't suppose may people use it unless connecting to or from a Voyager for a longer journey, or on a staff pass.
I semi-regularly use first class on the Birmingham to Stansted route with an advance ticket, connecting from an XC Voyager. There are some very cheap such tickets at the weekend, but even so, it is quite normal to have just one or two fellow passengers in the first class section of a 170 and not unusual to have it to myself between Birmingham and Peterborough or Cambridge. I don't know what it's like during the week.

There is the occasional 'chancer' that gets on at New Street and then claims that either they didn't know it was first class, or that standard is full, but one of the regular guards is best described as being very robust in pointing out the error of these people's ways.
 
Last edited:

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,453
The seats were reused in 159101-8...

And now being removed from 159101-8 in favour of the First Class seats used in the 159/0s, presumably spare seats from the GWR First to Standard conversions.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
9,166
Thanks everyone for the replies. So did the ex MML 3-car ones lose that central first class area and gain an end of carriage one when XC took over?

The XC first class section always seems quite pitiful to me.

It's not really relevant to this discussion but I can never see any pattern to how XC assign their 2/3 car units. The Leicester local service will be near empty if it's 3 car and the Stansted one will be full and standing if it's 2.

They are diagrammed separately, but the due to the TT its Stansted- Brum - Leicester - Brum - Stansted etc (and the same with Nottingham-Brum/Cardiff diagrams)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top