Class 317 - breaking in to rear cab?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ChristopherJ

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2005
Messages
383
Location
London, UK
Yesterday night I was at Tottenham Hale and the 19:55 to Hertford East was a single 317/6 EMU and was rammed solid to the bone. How that poor little unit even moved under all that strain, I never know.

I noticed that a few passengers at the back of the platform entered the train through the rear cab door and stood in the vestibule between the bulkhead of the cab and the carriage saloon.

IIRC, I think I've seen this happen before, again I think it was on a 317/6 phase 2 set. The passengers seemed to just merrily walk up and open the cab door without force and I noticed that there is a push-button console located on the outside of the train. Does the cab door also release when the interlock is released for the saloon doors?

Are the passengers technically trespassing by standing in this area of the train?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

spurs4life

Member
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
71
Yes but the rear saloon is often left open by drivers because you have got a door to the main cab.plus you have got a door release buttons as well so for me there is no problem standing there.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
IIRC, on a 317/1 the only 'drivers door' which doesn't operate with the door open button on the outside is the one for the cab where the door key switch is activated. When the 317/1s were on hire to Thameslink, it was noted that passengers will use them as regular doors and to make sure each drivers cab is secure at all times.

I can only presume there is a similar arrangement on the 317/6.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Technically passengers shouldn't be in there but as it the doors release with the others as has been explained its not hard to get in. Happens all the time on 313s going into moorgate in the mornings.

I know of a woman who commutes peterbourgh to London on 317s and has been caught by drivers passing in the back cab (which is allowed) and has a br1 key she bought on eBay so just let's herself in, switches the heatning and lights on and has a comfy ride on her own in the back cab! Unless a passing driver forces her out!

They went through a period of having BTP meet 455s at London bridge in the mornings when drivers reported seeing passengers getting into the middle/back cabs of those.
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
Technically passengers shouldn't be in there but as it the doors release with the others as has been explained its not hard to get in. Happens all the time on 313s going into moorgate in the mornings.

I know of a woman who commutes peterbourgh to London on 317s and has been caught by drivers passing in the back cab (which is allowed) and has a br1 key she bought on eBay so just let's herself in, switches the heatning and lights on and has a comfy ride on her own in the back cab! Unless a passing driver forces her out!

They went through a period of having BTP meet 455s at London bridge in the mornings when drivers reported seeing passengers getting into the middle/back cabs of those.

Lol at woman with the key :D
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I also heard a story from a mate that a driver at harringay one morning saw passenger going in the middle cab on the monitors. He went back to kick them out and asked what they were doing. They looked surprised and said 'should we not be in here then? To which the driver replied no, that is why you had to force the door open rather than just press a button. The passengers were so insistent they had not forced the door and claimed it just opened when the train stopped. The driver asked them all and others on the platform if this was the case that the door had just come open when the train stopped and they all backed each other up so he phoned control to report a door Failiure and kicked everyone off the train there and then and shunted it into Hornsey depot! Those passengers must have been very popular with the hundreds of rush hour commuters on the train who had to try and cram onto the following services!
 

Eng274

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2010
Messages
796
I would've thought a more concerted effort to block the cabs from the public would be sought, given the risk of vandalism to the cab or disruption from 'accidental' button pressing. Its certainly the case up here.

Even cabs with a solid lock doesn't stop determined passengers who think the cab is a lavatory though, despite the handle and lack of bright, eye-catching buttons, and the "Do not enter" signs!
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I have often wondered why we don't routinely lock back cabs out of use, it dosnt take a genius to work out how to open most cab doors, most commuters watch us do it every day and it's not hard to work out that the handle next to the cab door opens it! I would have thought in these days of terrorism where a bag could be placed in a middle cab and go unnoticed for hours at a time companies would instruct them to be fully locked but apart from the br1 key inner door on 317/455/150etc etc type trains (and with br1 keys being 10 a penny on eBay etc) there is no way to lock most cabs. And last time I locked a 377 cab to run to the loo I got back and couldn't unlock it, failed train, empty to Selhurst, no more playing with cab locks for me!
 

bronzeonion

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2009
Messages
673
Location
West London
I believe the area between the drivers cab and passenger saloon on 317/150's is technically for passengers. ATW even bother to paint the door leading to that area in a contrasting colour. There are door opening buttons on the interior and there used to be one on the exterior with the 317's. They are released and locked the same as any other door on the train.
 
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
75
I believe the area between the drivers cab and passenger saloon on 317/150's is technically for passengers. ATW even bother to paint the door leading to that area in a contrasting colour. There are door opening buttons on the interior and there used to be one on the exterior with the 317's. They are released and locked the same as any other door on the train.
Thats what I remember from when there were 317s on the Thameslink route - it was just another door for passenger use - the 'driver' door was the one inside the train.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
4,389
Location
In the cab with the paper
The cabs themselves are obviously out of bounds at all times no matter where they are in the train (front, back or middle).

The problem with the vestibule behind the cab is that they cannot be made strictly out of bounds and marked up as private because they can be used by the public when they are in the middle of units in multiple and the gangway between the units is made up. This is also why there are door controls on the inside of the door so that they can be used by passengers. However, where it is the front or back cab these vestibules ARE out of bounds and the public have no business being in there.

Unfortunately a lot of the onboard notices get removed by unauthorised people, but I'm fairly sure that there is (or at least should be) a prohibition notice stuck to the sliding door that separates the vestibule from the saloon stating that there is no public access beyond that point. When the door is open (e.g. when the gangway is in use) this notice is hidden, but when it is closed the notice would be visible. This to me takes the matter beyond question. You shouldn't be in that part of the train except when it is a middle cab and the gangway is in use.

O L Leigh
 

boing_uk

Member
Joined
18 May 2009
Messages
609
Location
Blackburn
It depends on the 150 though. 150/1's the slam door is staff only and clearly identified as such in the passenger cabin, being only openable by the BR1 key. On the 150/2, the door is accessible to the public.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
4,389
Location
In the cab with the paper
Because it has a gangway on the front, similar to a Cl317.

It's the gangway that is the issue here for the reasons I've already explained. However, the existance of a gangway does not automatically mean that this area of the train is always going to be available for the use of passengers.

O L Leigh
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Both 313s and 317s (more so 313s) have equipment in the vestibules that could be vandalised/removed etc including ladders, fire extinguishers, track circuit clips, phones (313) etc, plus in 313s you can get into cabinets in the vestibule containing isolation cocks etc.

There isn't much a driver can do apart from what I said that driver did at harringay but it is still illegal to be in there. I do sympathise that the trains get packed and that is a large area but still prohibited. Plus on 313s the doors don't open like 317s when released-you have to really force the cab door open which can damage them and lead to delays and cancelations.

It can also be dangerous in the back cabs-often there are no
Lights on so pitch black in tunnels and in the event of a crash potters bar style they may not immediately look for people in the cabs-that is one of the reasons train crew are meant to inform the driver if they are travelling in the back cab.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
4,389
Location
In the cab with the paper
Here we are.


Open.


Closed.


Notice.

So, it's private beyond that point when the sliding door is closed as it would be if it was an end cab. Therefore, no you're not meant to be in there.

Any questions?

O L Leigh
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,427
It really isn't rocket science is it? Though sometimes the door is closed across when coupled up- but half the time I suspect that's done by passengers in the section adjacent wanting a bit of quiet.
 

bronzeonion

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2009
Messages
673
Location
West London
Regarding the huge open space in the 313, 314, 315, 507 508 trains, wernt those areas initially provided for passengers, and the drivers cab was originally just the little box he/she sits in?
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,427
as far as I understand it, no. It's there to provide clear, passenger-free, access to the driving cab from the platform/lineside, whilst making the cab a bit more comfortable (never mind the corridor connector/front egress) by not having potentially drafty external doors next to the driver.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,493
Location
UK
I also heard a story from a mate that a driver at harringay one morning saw passenger going in the middle cab on the monitors. He went back to kick them out and asked what they were doing. They looked surprised and said 'should we not be in here then? To which the driver replied no, that is why you had to force the door open rather than just press a button.
I've seen people easily slide a 317/1 door open using the vertical metal bar on them at Finsbury Park, then stand behind the cab. In the case of a 4+4 set, the internal doors would normally be open - but they board via the side door and I've also seen them close the doors, to stop anyone else being able to enter/walk through.

I can sort of see why someone might be tempted to buy a key to re-open them. In these cases, the doors have been opened by staff to allow passengers in.

I've never seen anyone in the rear cab though!

The space on a 313 is massive though (given it's only 3-car) but in all my travels on them to work, I've never seen the general public get in there.
 
Last edited:

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I've seen people easily slide a 317/1 door open using the vertical metal bar on them at Finsbury Park, then stand behind the cab. In the case of a 4+4 set, the internal doors would normally be open - but they board via the side door and I've also seen them close the doors, to stop anyone else being able to enter/walk through.

I can sort of see why someone might be tempted to buy a key to re-open them. In these cases, the doors have been opened by staff to allow passengers in.

I've never seen anyone in the rear cab though!

The space on a 313 is massive though (given it's only 3-car) but in all my travels on them to work, I've never seen the general public get in there.
When a release is put up on a 317 all those single leaf doors release except the ones on the cab with the master key or door key on so they will just slide open. It is allowed on middle cabs as has been said but not in the front or back cab.

313s are different and you either need a carriage key to open them or force them open (which does damage the door, can pull it off the runner etc.

I believe there are plans that when the new Thameslink stock arrives the 313s will be per inanely coupled to 6 car and so the middle cabs will be opened up for passengers.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,427
On that last point, are you sure you're mistaking "actual plans" with "someone elses forum wibblings"?
 

Aictos

On Moderation
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
9,333
I've seen people easily slide a 317/1 door open using the vertical metal bar on them at Finsbury Park, then stand behind the cab. In the case of a 4+4 set, the internal doors would normally be open - but they board via the side door and I've also seen them close the doors, to stop anyone else being able to enter/walk through.

I can sort of see why someone might be tempted to buy a key to re-open them. In these cases, the doors have been opened by staff to allow passengers in.

I've never seen anyone in the rear cab though!

The space on a 313 is massive though (given it's only 3-car) but in all my travels on them to work, I've never seen the general public get in there.
Indeed, I've used them (multiple 317s) before and prefer if they (gangways) were left open simply to take into consideration the fact that passengers might want to move between units.

Anyway, I thought one of the reasons for the gangways to be open to passengers when in multiple was simply down to 1.) allow passengers to move between the EMUs and 2.) in order to quickly evacuate one unit if need be.
 

Scotrail84

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,156
I know of a woman who commutes peterbourgh to London on 317s and has been caught by drivers passing in the back cab (which is allowed) and has a br1 key she bought on eBay so just let's herself in, switches the heatning and lights on and has a comfy ride on her own in the back cab! Unless a passing driver forces her out!

I'm sorry I find this somewhat unbelievable and far fetched to say the least.
 

ChristopherJ

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2005
Messages
383
Location
London, UK
The space on a 313 is massive though
Am I correct in believing that the reason why the cab vestibules in 1972 design units (313/314/315/507/508) was constructed to such a large specification was because they was intended for the transport of parcels?

2.) in order to quickly evacuate one unit if need be.
It's also worth mentioning that the 317s were required to be built with gangways for evacuation from the City Widened Lines tunnels when introduced on the Bed-Pan route to Moorgate.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Don't you just love spell checkers! :p
Its the stupid predictive text thing on iPads. Trust me, that isn't too bad compared to some of the things I have emailed and texted people.

As for the woman commuting from peterbourgh I can assure it is 100% true, I know of 2 drivers who have caught her. Those kind of keys are pretty easy to get hold of. Not sure if she still does it but she is very open about it when caught by the drivers, I suppose I have a certain amount of sympathy as passenger do pay huge sums for rush hour travel in pretty awful conditions. And I have caught passengers in rear cabs of other stock before.
 

Eng274

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2010
Messages
796
IMO if she's a repeat offender she should be at least warned that she's breaking Railway Byelaw 10(2), and if caught again she'll be penalised for it.

How much passengers pay for their season ticket or how open they are when caught doesn't excuse the fact they shouldn't be in the cab in the first place. I'd confiscate their key as well.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
11,235
Location
Epsom
The space on a 313 is massive though (given it's only 3-car) but in all my travels on them to work, I've never seen the general public get in there.
About 15 - 20 years ago they were used as extra passenger space in the peaks on the Moorgate branch - typically about 20 people in each one. Just the two in the middle of a 6 car set though - never the outer ones.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top