Class 321 with a door open for 23 minutes

[AlbertBeale]

I mean, to be fair, I've travelled on Indian trains which don't actually seem to have doors, with my legs dangling out, at well over 50mph. Even in places like Poland, many of the older trains run with the doors open. But slightly different health and safety culture here though.

I once did a very slow, all-day journey from Barcelona to Madrid in hot weather; the doors at the end of the carriages were open for hours on end and everyone took turns to hang out of the door to cool down a bit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

By all accounts, some punters weren't too happy to be turfed out at Finsbury Park. They thought it was o.k. to travel in it and really didn't appreciate the delay!

When I lived down there, that was my attitude too. If I saw something was OK but amiss I'd only report it when I got to where I was going!

 

[westv]

Didn't the Renatus refurb/upgrades add air con?

Must have been after I left the area and stopped using the summer "ovens"

 

[samuelmorris]

Must have been after I left the area and stopped using the summer "ovens"

The latter half of the units were only finished last year, and only 30 of the 100-unit fleet were refurbished in such a manner.

 

[Panupreset]

So when RSSB warned us as drivers not so long ago that the interlock light being lit doesn’t mean the doors are closed and in fact they could be open sufficiently to have someone’s hand in them, that wasn’t exactly true was it.....

 

[Tomnick]

So when RSSB warned us as drivers not so long ago that the interlock light being lit doesn’t mean the doors are closed and in fact they could be open sufficiently to have someone’s hand in them, that wasn’t exactly true was it.....

Well, it was, sort of. You’d certainly get someone’s hand in *that* gap!

 

[Chris M]

Yikes, why didn't anyone pull an alarm?!

Perhaps the only people in that carriage felt that it was safer not to stand up and move around in a moving train with an open door - especially if they weren't young and physically fit. If there is nobody near the door it's far safer to keep it that way and report it at the next station.

 

[jamesst]

I agree. I think that by far the most likely explanation is that simply nobody noticed, including all staff and passengers present.

I worked a train once where some local chavs managed to smash a window by throwing a brick at it . Only 1 passenger said something when they'd got to there destination and were leaving the train . And when I went into the coach concerned there were people literally sitting amongst broken glass!

 

[GarethW]

Belatedly v well done Surreytraveller -LOL is overused but that did make me.

 

[Ethano92]

I think incidents like this and the jubilee line train one show the way passengers without (likely) any interest in trains think. Nobody wants to be delayed. They knew they'd be stopped for a while and their train would likely be terminated early etc and I don't blame them, I think I would've done the same in all honesty, stay sat and keep moving. If the train was full, and there were people having to stand in the vestibule then I guess my thinking would be different.

These alongside self egress incidents all show one thing: people want to get to where they're going with as little delay possible if they don't believe there's any immediate danger which I don't think there was in this case.

 

[edwin_m]

Surely all trains with automatic doors should automatically have their brakes applied when a door opens?

They should. There is either a fault in the interlock or it has been isolated, which should only happen if all passengers are taken off at the first opportunity. The Safety Digest will consider why this situation occurs, but the fact it's not a full report suggests the issue is fairly straightforward.

Why? If no-one is standing near it, then the open door isn't likely to be causing anyone any harm. As a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, there have been times in hot weather when I've ridden on buses in which the driver has (apparently, deliberately) left the door open, and I don't ever recall anyone questioning that at the time. An open door on a quiet train is obviously a lot more surprising, but it seems hard to argue that it's any more immediately dangerous than one on a bus.

A bus door is right next to the driver, who can shout at anyone who approaches it and if necessary stop the bus to prevent an accident. There is no observation of a train door. It's possible someone might try to close it themselves, lose balance or be affected by a lurch or the pressure pulse from a passing train and end up going out. Some might say it would be foolish of them to try, but I think it's something many people would consider doing.

Even if the alarm is right next to the affected door there should be another one that's safer to get to - are they at diagonally opposite doors on these units?

 

[SECR263]

I remember when in Newcastle chasing steam that the original Gresley electrics has people opened doors which you could leave open when the train went along. The bucket seats were good. On another occasion I was on a juicer from Waterloo East to Ashford pre 74 when an elderly couple were trying to shut a door on the safety catch when it sprang open thrashing down Hildenbourgh bank. What do you do, pull the cord, no train was late. Grab hold of luggage rack, lean out looking to see if another train was coming on the up, no, lean out slide down drop light to minimise wind drag haul door shut. No problem. Ah the good old days.

 

[AndrewE]

I think incidents like this and the jubilee line train one show the way passengers without (likely) any interest in trains think. Nobody wants to be delayed. They knew they'd be stopped for a while and their train would likely be terminated early etc and I don't blame them, I think I would've done the same in all honesty, stay sat and keep moving. If the train was full, and there were people having to stand in the vestibule then I guess my thinking would be different.

These alongside self egress incidents all show one thing: people want to get to where they're going with as little delay possible if they don't believe there's any immediate danger which I don't think there was in this case.

Agreed, which proves that a lot of the time people (i.e. we all) are far better at risk assessment than "professionals" are prepared to credit. In this case people obviously got it right, but self-egress is far more difficult to justify as the operational railway is an alien environment for those not trained to cope with it. An open door on a moving almost-empty train can be understood, the risk of being hit by another train or being electrocuted by a bit of metal that looks like a running rail isn't obvious.

 

[yorkie]

The bus door comparison isn't a valid one.

But it's true to say this would be a complete and total non-issue in many other countries. In April this year I was on a train with an open door in Portugal, behind a loco that is similar to our Class 20s. The Guard even said we could stand by the open door if we wanted to (the open window was sufficient for us!)

 

[geoffk]

Yeah see it in Serbia . EMUS in Istanbul the doors never shut . Didnt see it in Poland , thought they would have better safety there.

Australia too, I believe. Did anyone fall out?

 

[Ianno87]

I mean, to be fair, I've travelled on Indian trains which don't actually seem to have doors, with my legs dangling out, at well over 50mph. Even in places like Poland, many of the older trains run with the doors open. But slightly different health and safety culture here though.

A "slightly" different rates of folks getting killed or injured on the railways, coincidentally.

 

[30907]

Perhaps the only people in that carriage felt that it was safer not to stand up and move around in a moving train with an open door - especially if they weren't young and physically fit. If there is nobody near the door it's far safer to keep it that way and report it at the next station.

Or perhaps the carriage was empty, if this was an early morning train going into Southend Vic? The door was apparently open from Shenfield though...

 

[F Great Eastern]

If it was taken out of service immediately, then how was it open for 23 minutes? That contradicts itself. Sounds like PR spin is being applied here to try and limit the damage to Greater Anglia's reputation.

No surprise there is yet another issue with Renatus trains, it is bargain bucket project which has aimed to tick as many boxes as cheaply as possible. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.

However is it me or is there nothing to back up what the headline says? The anonymous eyewitness as well doesn't seem to suggest if the train was moving or stationary. Also if there was really a technician that just happened to be there, isn't that just a co-incidence?

 

[A Challenge]

If it was taken out of service immediately, then how was it open for 23 minutes? That contradicts itself. Sounds like PR spin is being applied here to try and limit the damage to Greater Anglia's reputation.

My reading is that the train was taken out of service when staff first knew about it, which was when it was reported, after the 23 minutes with it open.

 

[Killingworth]

I remember when in Newcastle chasing steam that the original Gresley electrics has people opened doors which you could leave open when the train went along. The bucket seats were good. On another occasion I was on a juicer from Waterloo East to Ashford pre 74 when an elderly couple were trying to shut a door on the safety catch when it sprang open thrashing down Hildenbourgh bank. What do you do, pull the cord, no train was late. Grab hold of luggage rack, lean out looking to see if another train was coming on the up, no, lean out slide down drop light to minimise wind drag haul door shut. No problem. Ah the good old days.

When the Tyneside Gresley electrics were coming to the end of their lives the sliding doors could be very stiff to operate, possibly due to corrosion. They were often at least partially open. But that was over 50 years ago when safety had different definitions, and railway deaths more common.

 

[samuelmorris]

If it was taken out of service immediately, then how was it open for 23 minutes? That contradicts itself. Sounds like PR spin is being applied here to try and limit the damage to Greater Anglia's reputation.

No surprise there is yet another issue with Renatus trains, it is bargain bucket project which has aimed to tick as many boxes as cheaply as possible. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.

However is it me or is there nothing to back up what the headline says? The anonymous eyewitness as well doesn't seem to suggest if the train was moving or stationary. Also if there was really a technician that just happened to be there, isn't that just a co-incidence?

Immediately as soon as they found out. No amount of PR spin will make this look good for Abellio, however trivial the cause is.

Obviously like most people I'm not going to put myself in danger in situations like this - if it were on the same side as the alarm I'd probably have waited to the next stop then used the alarm at the station, or perhaps see if it rectified itself at the next stop then use the alarm on departure if it didn't. Consider this, though, what if you wandered through the train looking for the toilet and were intent on that, then suddenly found yourself in the vestibule with the open door? What if then, as we know 321s, especially Renatus units are prone to do, the train swung violently from side to side as it crossed a set of points and that person lost their footing? The odds of all that happening are very low, but certainly not impossible. Someone who doesn't have perfect balance could easily have ended up being thrown towards an open door on a service moving at speed. If there's a way someone could fall from a train through no fault of their own, however slight the chance, it's a safety breach of the highest order. As much as open doors are the norm in other countries, it's expected in their culture, which reduces the risk quite a bit. In the UK it's just not acceptable, I don't think some people are taking this one seriously enough.

 

[route101]

Australia too, I believe. Did anyone fall out?

Cant imagine that in Australia now ha .

You applied common sense

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was in the Rule Book which we all signed up to (not the bit about the stag do). Good justification for us office-based types to look out of the window all day...

The words were "all staff must closely observe trains" ..

 

[Realfish]

Yeah see it in Serbia . EMUS in Istanbul the doors never shut . Didnt see it in Poland , thought they would have better safety there.

France too!
Quite few years back, instead if the usual double decker EMU, some old loco hauled stock formed our train from Ventimiglia to Cannes. Everything was fine until Nice but then as we were ready to depart, the doors wouldn't shut on our coach. Plenty of staff arrived, tried banging and shoving the doors, a fitter came and he tried without success. The doors still wouldn't shut so the only thing for it was a gallic shrug and a wave of the hand, and off we went, doors open. The coach, by the way, was rammed.

 

[Gonzoiku]

The words were "all staff must closely observe trains" ..

Oh yes, I remember watching the film as a student. Best Foreign Language film 1968 Oscars.

GZ

 

[Edders23]

I agree. I think that by far the most likely explanation is that simply nobody noticed, including all staff and passengers present.

aren't there lights that illuminate alerting train crew that a door hasn't closed properly ?

 

[js1000]

The doors on the old BR 319/320/321 stock have always had dodgy doors which appear to have got worse with wear & tear. One of the reasons I'm delighted Northern are getting rid of their 319s and replacing them with 323s.

 

[alangla]

Cant imagine that in Australia now ha .

You applied common sense

Last time I had a trip on a V set (2002, so still run by Cityrail), the doors were manually opened & often still on the way to closing when they left a station. I remember one night one stopped at Hornsby with smoke billowing from the hessian doormat, someone pointed it out to platform staff who threw a jug of water over it & sent the train on its way.

 

[alangla]

aren't there lights that illuminate alerting train crew that a door hasn't closed properly ?

Presumably if the train moved then interlock had been obtained & the light was out. The question for the RAIB is why

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Oh yes, I remember watching the film as a student. Best Foreign Language film 1968 Oscars.

GZ

I know what you refer to -excellent black and white film , with a (worrying) end. Must dig it out again.