Class 323 cascade to Midlands

[AM9]

The Plan also adds, following the above quote:

Reading between the lines, NR would appear to be considering the possibility of ~10m extensions to the 75m platforms at Flowery Field and Godley, so that 4x20m units could be used on the Glossop/Hadfield line.

You may jest, but I would guess that the acceleration and platform dwell time of a 315 would match or better the timing performance of a 323 on the Glossop/Hadfield line - and provide a significant capacity improvement.

That would be an irony if the trains that replaced the ex-LNER 506s in Manchester were replaced by the trains that replaced the (originally) almost identical trains on the Liverpool St. to Shenfield route.

 

[JonathanH]

That would be an irony if the trains that replaced the ex-LNER 506s in Manchester were replaced by the trains that replaced the (originally) almost identical trains on the Liverpool St. to Shenfield route.

Not quite. There was an era with 303s and 304s working to Hadfield between the 506s and 323s wasn't there?

 

[childwallblues]

That would be an irony if the trains that replaced the ex-LNER 506s in Manchester were replaced by the trains that replaced the (originally) almost identical trains on the Liverpool St. to Shenfield route.

Class 306

 

[pemma]

I wonder, as part of the Direct Award talks, if DfT will offer LM as many EMUs as they want (within reason) for Birmingham local services on condition that they release some DMUs for other areas?

 

[AM9]

Not quite. There was an era with 303s and 304s working to Hadfield between the 506s and 323s wasn't there?

But neither of those were LNER designs like the 306 and 506. They were both MKI designs. The x06s were the Eastern Region equivalent of the LMS class 502s on the Wirral lines.

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder, as part of the Direct Award talks, if DfT will offer LM as many EMUs as they want (within reason) for Birmingham local services on condition that they release some DMUs for other areas?

Not the DfT's to offer or take away as they don't own the stock - the ROSCOs do.

 

[matt]

I wonder, as part of the Direct Award talks, if DfT will offer LM as many EMUs as they want (within reason) for Birmingham local services on condition that they release some DMUs for other areas?

What services do LM operate currently that are DMU operated that could be replaced by an EMU?

 

[wellwhatitis]

What services do LM operate currently that are DMU operated that could be replaced by an EMU?

Precisely. None.

 

[childwallblues]

But neither of those were LNER designs like the 306 and 506. They were both MKI designs. The x06s were the Eastern Region equivalent of the LMS class 502s on the Wirral lines.

502s were Liverpool-Southport/Ormskirk. Presume you mean 503s?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Not the DfT's to offer or take away as they don't own the stock - the ROSCOs do.

This has been debated countless amounts of times but this is just because this is a privatised railway means that the DfT don't really have any control over who gets what. At the end of the day the ROSOCs, lease their trains to the highest bidder which is exactly what you'd expect.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[AM9]

502s were Liverpool-Southport/Ormskirk. Presume you mean 503s?

OK, yes probably although the 506s had higher power motors than the 306s (4 x 185hp vs. 4 x 157hp). I know that the 502s were bigger and a lot more powerful than the 503s but they were similar in layout and appearance.
Must leave this OT side conversation now.

 

[Philip C]

This has been debated countless amounts of times but this is just because this is a privatised railway means that the DfT don't really have any control over who gets what. At the end of the day the ROSOCs, lease their trains to the highest bidder which is exactly what you'd expect.

Thanks,
Ross

Then could someone please explain why the ROSCO, in this case, appears not to be interested in waiting to hear what the incoming Northern operator is prepared to bid?

 

[pemma]

Not the DfT's to offer or take away as they don't own the stock - the ROSCOs do.

LM are a subsided franchise so if DfT want it to release DMUs the only options they have are:
1. Try to convince DfT to change their minds.
2. End talks over a Direct Award - as Stagecoach did with SWT.
3. Govia put it's own money in to lease more DMUs than DfT wants the franchise to have - not bloody likely!

What services do LM operate currently that are DMU operated that could be replaced by an EMU?

Precisely. None.

The LM Direct Award will end in late 2017 will there be no electrification work expected to be completed by then?

There is a DMU shortage and DfT have been looking for ways of releasing DMUs even if it involves splitting up useful services - look at Northern getting 6 extra 319s in exchange for loaning 6 x 156s to TPE despite not having any routes which could transfer without splitting up services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day the ROSOCs, lease their trains to the highest bidder which is exactly what you'd expect.

It's not necessarily the highest bidder. Short term leases are unattractive to ROSCOs as we found out with the TPE 170/3s, as are leases of a small number of units of a class of train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a DMU shortage and DfT have been looking for ways of releasing DMUs even if it involves splitting up useful services - look at Northern getting 6 extra 319s in exchange for loaning 6 x 156s to TPE despite not having any routes which could transfer without splitting up services.

Then go ahead and split away. There is such a shortage of DMUs that DMUs under the wires are a total waste of capacity. Rather a seat with a connection than standing with a direct service, if the connections are decent.

 

[geoffk]

Originally Posted by matt View Post
What services do LM operate currently that are DMU operated that could be replaced by an EMU?

Walsall - Rugeley is due to be wired by 2017 so four (?) dmus will be replaced then.

 

[158722]

Originally Posted by matt View Post
What services do LM operate currently that are DMU operated that could be replaced by an EMU?

Walsall - Rugeley is due to be wired by 2017 so four (?) dmus will be replaced then.

2x 170/6s and 2x 170/5 & 153 combos will be released, allowing various internal LM cascades/rediagramming.

 

[pemma]

2x 170/6s and 2x 170/5 & 153 combos will be released, allowing various internal LM cascades/rediagramming.

Internal cascades is what was supposed to happen with the DMUs released by Chat Moss electrification but due to the DMU shortage at TPE it mainly didn't. As the LM leases all expire next April (except for the 350/3s) I don't think anything is guaranteed.

 

[Wolfie]

LM are a subsided franchise so if DfT want it to release DMUs the only options they have are:
1. Try to convince DfT to change their minds.
2. End talks over a Direct Award - as Stagecoach did with SWT.
3. Govia put it's own money in to lease more DMUs than DfT wants the franchise to have - not bloody likely!

The LM Direct Award will end in late 2017 will there be no electrification work expected to be completed by then?

There is a DMU shortage and DfT have been looking for ways of releasing DMUs even if it involves splitting up useful services - look at Northern getting 6 extra 319s in exchange for loaning 6 x 156s to TPE despite not having any routes which could transfer without splitting up services.

It's not necessarily the highest bidder. Short term leases are unattractive to ROSCOs as we found out with the TPE 170/3s, as are leases of a small number of units of a class of train.

my bold

Not half as much as Northern!

DfT may have ideas but there are a LOT of Tory MPs in the Midlands who will be spitting feathers if rolling stock is removed, without adequate replacement, to go to the "more subsidised" North...

I absolutely agree with your comments re short-term leases, even at advantageous rates. What the ROSCOs want is certainty of income...

 

[pemma]

my bold

Not half as much as Northern!

DfT may have ideas but there are a LOT of Tory MPs in the Midlands who will be spitting feathers if rolling stock is removed, without adequate replacement, to go to the "more subsidised" North...

I didn't say anything about LM releasing trains to Northern. It's TPE who will have a more immediate shortage of DMUs (TPE have a lower subsidy than LM )

I also doubt there's very much difference between the subsidy for Wolverhampton/Birmingham area local services and the Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds area local services. The LM franchise has pseudo-Intercity routes which help reduce the overall subsidy, while Northern don't have such routes.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

While I can understand the concern of people in the North West regarding the loss of the 323s we in the West Midlands will be pleased to see what we were promised at the start of the LM franchise. Please understand you lot up in Mancunia that others get false promises as well.
Common sense puts all the 323s in the West Midlands but where will they be stabled and serviced. Add in that like the 321s disabled loos etc. will need to be fitted to these old trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Porterbrook have said to Rail (782), that the 323s are planned to move in 2018/19 - ie after further NW electrification is completed.
They say they have "offered significant increases in the overall level of EMUs available to the new franchise [Northern], as well as offering to finance substantial new fleets of rolling stock..."

This is only one offer of course, other ROSCOs will also have made offers as part of the three bids (Abellio, Govia, Arriva).
DfT can pick which one it likes, and negotiate something different anyway if it wants to.
Nothing is certain yet.

 

[pemma]

While I can understand the concern of people in the North West regarding the loss of the 323s we in the West Midlands will be pleased to see what we were promised at the start of the LM franchise. Please understand you lot up in Mancunia that others get false promises as well.
Common sense puts all the 323s in the West Midlands but where will they be stabled and serviced. Add in that like the 321s disabled loos etc. will need to be fitted to these old trains.

If we think back to the CP4 HLOS LM were set to get the Northern 323s but weren't expected to keep any 321s or get further 350s after the 350/2s so while they didn't get the 17 x 70m EMUs they were promised they have got 10 x 80m EMUs which they weren't expected to get, as well a getting to keep a further 7 x 80m EMUs they were expected to release. LM were also expected to keep all their 153s and lose all their 150s as a result of the 172 order but they managed to keep 3 x 150s and release 2 x 153s instead. Overall LM have more than what they expected even if they didn't get the Northern 323s or extra 172s.

Northern never got the new EMUs they are promised for 321/3 replacement and extra capacity, although they did get the 322s. They were also supposed to get a minimum of 130 new diesel vehicles which never happened and to date instead they've received 80 cascaded electric vehicles and 2 x 4 car loco-hauled sets but lost 6 x 2 car 156s, so at least 54 vehicles short of where they should have been at the end of CP4.

FGW never received the new 8 x 4 car DMUs they were promised so they are 32 down on where they should have been at the end of CP4.

TPE were promised 40 extra diesel carriages by the end of CP4 (expected to be Turbostars) and got 40 extra electric Desiro carriages so got the right number but shorter carriages than expected.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

If we think back to the CP4 HLOS LM were set to get the Northern 323s but weren't expected to keep any 321s or get further 350s after the 350/2s so while they didn't get the 17 x 70m EMUs they were promised they have got 10 x 80m EMUs which they weren't expected to get, as well a getting to keep a further 7 x 80m EMUs they were expected to release. LM were also expected to keep all their 153s and lose all their 150s as a result of the 172 order but they managed to keep 3 x 150s and release 2 x 153s instead. Overall LM have more than what they expected even if they didn't get the Northern 323s or extra 172s.

Northern never got the new EMUs they are promised for 321/3 replacement and extra capacity, although they did get the 322s. They were also supposed to get a minimum of 130 new diesel vehicles which never happened and to date instead they've received 80 cascaded electric vehicles and 2 x 4 car loco-hauled sets but lost 6 x 2 car 156s, so at least 54 vehicles short of where they should have been at the end of CP4.

FGW never received the new 8 x 4 car DMUs they were promised so they are 32 down on where they should have been at the end of CP4.

TPE were promised 40 extra diesel carriages by the end of CP4 (expected to be Turbostars) and got 40 extra electric Desiro carriages so got the right number but shorter carriages than expected.

Yes LM gained WCML units not the West Midlands suburban suited units some of us were eagerly awaiting.

 

[pemma]

Yes LM gained WCML units not the West Midlands suburban suited units some of us were eagerly awaiting.

Some of the 350s are currently being used on the Wolverhampton-Wallsall line which would have probably been 323s had LM received the Northern 323s.

It was expected LM would take over Manchester-Stoke from Northern and start running an hourly Crewe-Preston service as part of wider changes, so not all the extra units would have provided extra capacity in the West Midlands. (LM said in their ORR application they could provide an hourly Preston service using their existing 350s and that was well before the 350/3s were confirmed.)

 

[geoffk]

All the above suggests that the ROSCOs are calling the shots - the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Wolfie]

All the above suggests that the ROSCOs are calling the shots - the tail wagging the dog.

The owner of any asset is perfectly entitled to make best use for its purposes of that asset. If DfT isn't happy with that I'm sure that it could always move to buy the ROSCOs out lol.

In any event I'm pretty sure that the ROSCOs couldn't make any worse a mess than DfT manage..... much of the mess described above is actually courtesy of that august Govt dept...

 

[geoffk]

If 319s are to replace the 323s moved away, it's unlikely, to say the least, that an additional 17 units can be refurbished and made available to Northern by next April, with all the extra drivers trained and platforms lengthened where necessary - and then there's the different performance characteristics, which will affect timetabling, particularly on the Crewe and Stoke lines. And that's assuming they can be spared from TSGN.

The Northern ITT gives the next major timetable change as December 2017. This is a more realistic date to start transferring the units and have replacements in place and changes made to stations and schedules. This would presumably require a sub-lease.

 

[pemma]

If 319s are to replace the 323s moved away, it's unlikely, to say the least, that an additional 17 units can be refurbished and made available to Northern by next April

Apparently Porterbrook have issued an statement to rail journalists saying that the 323s can be used by the next Northern franchise until Autumn 2018.

Autumn 2018 is when the TPE franchise can opt to release the Angel Trains 350/4s, so possibly there could be a lot of different EMUs appearing on different routes by the December 2018 timetable change.

This would presumably require a sub-lease.

Unless another operator signs a lease for those 323s no sublease would be required as they would be off-lease. While some people think LM could make use of 17 additional 323s I'm not sure DfT and Govia will think the same when they agree the terms of a Direct Award.

 

[Class 170101]

Not sure if I have said this here already but if so apologies.

2x 170/6s and 2x 170/5 & 153 combos will be released, allowing various internal LM cascades/rediagramming.

3x323s for this then? (Possibly a couple more)

Class 319 replacements (4 to 7 is it?) by moving Class 350s from remaining Walsall services onto Northampton to London services.
That could be upto ten

With an additional 7 Class 323s plus a possible 10 Class 350/4s it doesn't seem a lot for LM to grow its business.

 

[Jamesb1974]

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