Class 365s: Debranding and withdrawal has started

[MatthewRead]

This is why Great Western Railway should never have gone back on plans to use them because now there is going to be a lot of perfectly good EMU's in storage!

 

[muddythefish]

It would be a a crime to scrap the 365s, which (before their ill-advised refurbishment) I've long regarded as the best units on the railway - comfortable, roomy and far preferable to their successors on the GN or the 700s.

 

[Far north 37]

It would be a a crime to scrap the 365s, which (before their ill-advised refurbishment) I've long regarded as the best units on the railway - comfortable, roomy and far preferable to their successors on the GN or the 700s.

Perfectly good units the 365s and not just for commuter services a lot more of the more of the modern units seem far less suitable.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

I think they really should go back to SE. To replace the 376’s and provided stock continuity on the SE metro fleet. As they can work with 465’s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think they really should go back to SE. To replace the 376’s and provided stock continuity on the SE metro fleet. As they can work with 465’s.

376s are far more modern and suited to their roles than grotty 465s, anyway, there would be no point as I thought that Networkers are scheduled to be replaced off of that line within the next franchise.

 

[Class465fan]

376s are far more modern and suited to their roles than grotty 465s, anyway, there would be no point as the Networkers are scheduled to be replaced off of that line within the next franchise.

No one said they're to be replaced in the next franchise. And it would be rather silly to replace the networkers as they're still getting their PRM mods done.

 

[47802]

No one said they're to be replaced in the next franchise. And it would be rather silly to replace the networkers as they're still getting their PRM mods done.

The bidders will look at the requirements of the franchise and come up with their best business case which may include replacing the networkers and maybe even newer trains.

As for these trains too good to scrapped blah blah blah etc, its pathetic nonsense quite frankly.

 

[59CosG95]

No one said they're to be replaced in the next franchise. And it would be rather silly to replace the networkers as they're still getting their PRM mods done.

Nothing concrete has yet been said about Networker withdrawal down SE's way, but it's being very strongly hinted at...

Scrapping seems very unlikely given the recent refurb; I suspect (blindfolded, and taking a stab in the dark here) that if SE would take them on, minimal work to get the DC networkers & dual-voltage networkers talking to each other would be needed. Perhaps storage until such time as the MML wiring to Corby is complete, then use on services from Corby to St. Pancras?

 

[47802]

Nothing concrete has yet been said about Networker withdrawal down SE's way, but it's being very strongly hinted at...

Scrapping seems very unlikely given the recent refurb; I suspect (blindfolded, and taking a stab in the dark here) that if SE would take them on, minimal work to get the DC networkers & dual-voltage networkers talking to each other would be needed. Perhaps storage until such time as the MML wiring to Corby is complete, then use on services from Corby to St. Pancras?

I very much doubt that anything less than 379's or above will be acceptable for Corby

 

[wipers]

Personally, I think these units look pretty tired and grubby inside. The interiors are fundamentally sound but could definitely do with a deep clean and moquette change at the very least. Agree that reliability is good and don't see any reason to scrap them but I don't think the average commuter has the same affection as some forumers do.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I can clearly remember when these were introduced circa 1995. I picked up a leaflet at Cambridge station which detailed some of their features. They were a step up in comfort and ride quality, and I came to associate them with the 'Cambridge Cruiser' service as it came to be known.

 

[bramling]

Personally, I think these units look pretty tired and grubby inside. The interiors are fundamentally sound but could definitely do with a deep clean and moquette change at the very least. Agree that reliability is good and don't see any reason to scrap them but I don't think the average commuter has the same affection as some forumers do.

I think you are wrong on this. The impression I get is most of the posters on here are more users than die-hard enthusiasts. Certainly from my point of view whilst I appreciate the 365 from an enthusiast point of view as being an excellent piece of design, reality is I have used them to get to and from London on an almost daily basis since they were introduced. They have proved comfortable and reliable - for me two failures in two decades, and both of these only resulted in delays rather than the service being cancelled. 387s have already managed to cause me more disruption, despite them only being here for a year and me trying to avoid them where possible!

Station staff at my local station tell me they have received a lot of negative comments about both the 387s and even more so the 700s. This speaks volumes.

As regards the 365s sometimes appearing careworn, please remember over the years these units have been among the most intensively worked EMUs anywhere in the country, with over time more services and longer off-peak formations. No wonder they sometimes look tired - they’re always on the go.

 

[Hadders]

Personally, I think these units look pretty tired and grubby inside. The interiors are fundamentally sound but could definitely do with a deep clean and moquette change at the very least. Agree that reliability is good and don't see any reason to scrap them but I don't think the average commuter has the same affection as some forumers do.

I agree with @bramling The passengers on the 0656 from Peterborough would welcome it being operated by 365s rather than 700s.

Also worth noting that the refurb done a couple of years ago was a clear dumbing down to get us ready for the introduction of the 700s.

 

[A0wen]

I agree with @bramling The passengers on the 0656 from Peterborough would welcome it being operated by 365s rather than 700s.

Also worth noting that the refurb done a couple of years ago was a clear dumbing down to get us ready for the introduction of the 700s.

Sorry, but how can you 'dumb down' a train interior?

 

[bramling]

Sorry, but how can you 'dumb down' a train interior?

Loss of carpets, cheaper finishes, and an interior layout that most people regard as inferior.

The change to the interior layout, however, I believe it more to do with accessibility requirements and the need to create priority seats with enhanced legroom. A stupid thing to do, because commuters quickly notice which seats have the extra legroom, so guess which seats now become first to fill, and are thus now *less* available to those they are intended for? Also the reduction in table seats has tended to mean squabbles over tables can be more likely - particularly evident at weekends or days like today when the "I only travel once in a blue moon but expect everything to revolve around my needs" brigade are out in force.

 

[A0wen]

Loss of carpets, cheaper finishes, and an interior layout that most people regard as inferior.

The change to the interior layout, however, I believe it more to do with accessibility requirements and the need to create priority seats with enhanced legroom. A stupid thing to do, because commuters quickly notice which seats have the extra legroom, so guess which seats now become first to fill, and are thus now *less* available to those they are intended for? Also the reduction in table seats has tended to mean squabbles over tables can be more likely - particularly evident at weekends or days like today when the "I only travel once in a blue moon but expect everything to revolve around my needs" brigade are out in force.

But that's not "dumbing down" - dumbing down suggests there was intelligence there before, which as train interiors are inanimate means they can't be made 'dumber'.

Unless you're au-fait with the costs of materials, then you can't state the finishes were 'cheaper' - they may actually be more expensive, but equally more robust. Which means they are lower cost, but not cheaper.

The reality is, train interiors need to be functional and easily cleaned. Carpets don't lend themselves to that, particularly on suburban stock where there is a high-footfall. So some kind of 'solid' finish material makes far more sense.

 

[bramling]

But that's not "dumbing down" - dumbing down suggests there was intelligence there before, which as train interiors are inanimate means they can't be made 'dumber'.

Unless you're au-fait with the costs of materials, then you can't state the finishes were 'cheaper' - they may actually be more expensive, but equally more robust. Which means they are lower cost, but not cheaper.

The reality is, train interiors need to be functional and easily cleaned. Carpets don't lend themselves to that, particularly on suburban stock where there is a high-footfall. So some kind of 'solid' finish material makes far more sense.

Carpets managed perfectly well from 1997 to 2016...

To be fair, the interior still isn't bad at all. I'd have preferred the seating layout to have been left untouched though, as the new layout can be a PITA at times.

 

[Hadders]

Sorry, but how can you 'dumb down' a train interior?

Removal of carpet and replaced with vinyl that's difficult to keep clean
Fewer bay seats and more airline seats
Harsher lighting

We had a thread about it at the time. They are still excellent trains but to regular users the refurbishment appeared to be a downgrade to get us used to the bargain basement interior of the 700s.

 

[43074]

365s have always been good units IMO, it's sad to see some of them going. Having two relatively small fleets at Great Northern (20 or 30 units) doing the same thing instead of one larger fleet was always ridiculous, especially as 387s are most certainly a downgrade from the 365s. A better compromise would have been to keep all 40 365s at GN, and order a few additional 717s to make up the numbers required to cover the diagrams, perhaps for the proposed Royston - Kings Cross peak trains (and to avoid the semi-permanent Hertford to Stevenage bus )

Apparently GN 387s are routinely running around without the ability to walk through the whole train when in 8- and 12-car formations, can anyone confirm or deny whether this is the case?

 

[Ianno87]

365s have always been good units IMO, it's sad to see some of them going. Having two relatively small fleets at Great Northern (20 or 30 units) doing the same thing instead of one larger fleet was always ridiculous, especially as 387s are most certainly a downgrade from the 365s. A better compromise would have been to keep all 40 365s at GN, and order a few additional 717s to make up the numbers required to cover the diagrams, perhaps for the proposed Royston - Kings Cross peak trains (and to avoid the semi-permanent Hertford to Stevenage bus )

Apparently GN 387s are routinely running around without the ability to walk through the whole train when in 8- and 12-car formations, can anyone confirm or deny whether this is the case?

The ones I get on are usually set to walk through.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

I strongly disagree about 465’s. They are still reliable units that still have I say at least a good 25 years in them. All they need is new flooring, new seating such as completely new seats or just covers. Good internal clean and a new livery. It be a absolutely waste for them to go. 376’s although can fit more people I really don’t think they are the best option for SE. When you can have a 365 that can couple up and work in pairs. You can’t couple a networker and 376 together.

 

[Class465fan]

Cascade the 376s to Southern to replace the ageing 313s. They would make a good use there.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

Cascade the 376s to Southern to replace the ageing 313s. They would make a good use there.

Think they be more better to replace 455’s on southern.

 

[millemille]

You can’t couple a networker and 376 together.

Neither can you couple and operate a 465 and 365 in passenger service; they're not electrically compatible, both the 465 and 365 have to have the coupler selection switch in the "other" or "319" position which removes some functionality (I seem to recall you get a permanent pass comm alarm or something similar, it's been about 15 years since I coupled the two together). They are also geared differently, a 365 is geared to accelerate at a peak of 0.77ms2 and a 465 at 0.88ms2 so there would be problems with performance and reliability.

365's cannot, for all intents and purposes, return to DC operation, both due to certification issues surrounding 50Hz tripping timing for the line breakers opening and the singular lack of the DC equipment to refit (one complete set of shoe gear, cables, connection boxes, arc shields etc. was supposed to have been kept for pattern purposes after AC conversion but after both Doncaster and then Crewe works were closed/down sized these could not be found).

A lot of work regarding 365 future deployment was done both in the early 2000's, when the 16 DC units were coming off lease with Connex SE, and in the last 5 years, when it became certain that the GN route did not need the whole fleet; all kinds of options were considered and some pretty outlandish ideas were given serious scrutiny (365's on HS1 for example) but the potential for deployment off the GN was limited, either for physical, both operational and maintenance, or financial reasons.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

Neither can you couple and operate a 465 and 365 in passenger service; they're not electrically compatible, both the 465 and 365 have to have the coupler selection switch in the "other" or "319" position which removes some functionality (I seem to recall you get a permanent pass comm alarm or something similar, it's been about 15 years since I coupled the two together). They are also geared differently, a 365 is geared to accelerate at a peak of 0.77ms2 and a 465 at 0.88ms2 so there would be problems with performance and reliability.

365's cannot, for all intents and purposes, return to DC operation, both due to certification issues surrounding 50Hz tripping timing for the line breakers opening and the singular lack of the DC equipment to refit (one complete set of shoe gear, cables, connection boxes, arc shields etc. was supposed to have been kept for pattern purposes after AC conversion but after both Doncaster and then Crewe works were closed/down sized these could not be found).

A lot of work regarding 365 future deployment was done both in the early 2000's, when the 16 DC units were coming off lease with Connex SE, and in the last 5 years, when it became certain that the GN route did not need the whole fleet; all kinds of options were considered and some pretty outlandish ideas were given serious scrutiny (365's on HS1 for example) but the potential for deployment off the GN was limited, either for physical, both operational and maintenance, or financial reasons.

There’s no reason why they can’t come to SE to replace certain 465/9 workings so the /9’s can return to Metro.

 

[gazthomas]

I think 365’s are great units, the only serious omission being the lack of air conditioning on the 2 days per year that warrant it

 

[millemille]

There’s no reason why they can’t come to SE to replace certain 465/9 workings so the /9’s can return to Metro.

Apart from the fact that they are no longer route cleared for DC operation and would require significant investment to regain this and the equipment to enable them to operate on DC, does not exist and would, again, require significant investment to produce (and I'd not be certain that doing this would open the door to having to comply with current standards as any grandfather rights would be null and void).

And they couldn't keep 465/9 timings when they got closer to London. And why would 465/9's want to come back to Metro as they leave you short of seats to plan every time you run a /9 vice /0/1/2.

And maintenance of yet another small unique fleet would be the last thing that SE want (There is talk within the new rolling stock manufacturers that the SE franchise will have a new completely standard fleet - with minor interior variations - across Metro and Mainline ousting all Networkers and Electrostars)

 

[Fred26]

Apparently GN 387s are routinely running around without the ability to walk through the whole train when in 8- and 12-car formations, can anyone confirm or deny whether this is the case?

True. 387s will no longer have unit joining doors open. This is for the same reason it was stopped on the 317s - to mitigate the risk if the units split en route.

 

[muddythefish]

Removal of carpet and replaced with vinyl that's difficult to keep clean
Fewer bay seats and more airline seats
Harsher lighting

We had a thread about it at the time. They are still excellent trains but to regular users the refurbishment appeared to be a downgrade to get us used to the bargain basement interior of the 700s.

Agree with this. They were lovely trains to ride in before the "dumbing down". The carpets and the 2 x 2 seating with tables directly in line with the windows gave them the feel of a proper railway carriage. The vinyl may have made them easier to clean and more airline type seating enabled the operator to pack more passengers in but they weren't the same. As always, passenger comfort was the last consideration.

 

[Far north 37]

No one said they're to be replaced in the next franchise. And it would be rather silly to replace the networkers as they're still getting their PRM mods done.

I think your right here replacing networkers is not going to be a easy job its such a large fleet been servicing a large area for a long time.
Its going to take a lot of money and new coaches to replace such a large fleet and although maybe people think the interiors are getting tired operational wise i still think there holding there own the amount of diagrams and services they run they must have a good few years left even on south east london services.