Class 387 to GN

[overexerted]

Still a few 321s at Hornsey this morning, but notably more 387s than I've noticed before. In fact, there's a Greater Anglia 321 sat outside the depot this evening - anyone any idea why that would be there?

 

[Class377/5]

Still a few 321s at Hornsey this morning, but notably more 387s than I've noticed before. In fact, there's a Greater Anglia 321 sat outside the depot this evening - anyone any idea why that would be there?

Lathe? Tis the season.

 

[Wivenswold]

AGA, sorry GA, now has a lathe at Crown Point so it's more likely to be there to collect a couple of GN 321s in my opinion.

 

[D365]

Why would GN units need to be collected, can't they run under their own power?

 

[Wivenswold]

Maybe it was easier to send a GA driver with a unit to collect them.

 

[Class377/5]

AGA, sorry GA, now has a lathe at Crown Point so it's more likely to be there to collect a couple of GN 321s in my opinion.

You know just because a operator has a lathe it may still need to use others? Especially as Hornsey does a lot of work forother operators.

If unit needs a lathe you tend to keep it local and use nearest lathe especially with some work required means you get speed restrictions.

As for other reasons it was there, could be compatability testing?

 

[Failed Unit]

I remember other years crown point was overworked and couldn't keep up in leaf fall season resulting in cancellations.

Back to 387s. Any idea when they will start working off peak?

Any plans to rediagram Saturday services to keep them away from potters bar, Hatfield etc?

 

[bramling]

In terms of standing capacity, there is an improvement compared to the 317s and 321s. These don't really have anywhere to hold on to in the aisles, so most people crowd into the vestibules. Where people are in the aisles, they tend to stand around the seat backs, but that's a really cramped position. The 387s have grab handles and a wider aisle all the way along, as well as larger vestibules.

The seat comfort is subjective, but I really struggle to see how you could anything approaching comfort in a full 317. Personally, I find them better than the 365s too - on these, I'd always end up having to sit with my leg in the aisle, as the seat pitch was too tight. Not a problem on the 387s.

First class, yes, that's annoyingly unpredictable.

To me, the reduction in seats is the only issue. Although personally I'd stand rather than take a middle or window-of-3 seat on a 317 anyway...

The first class situation is a real problem at certain locations in the peaks, where people know where to stand on the platform to board - now there is the situation that you have a lottery whether the first class will be at one end or the other. This is an issue for both first and standard class passengers. Notwithstanding the fact that it's in a bad location for first-class passengers, this shows how this was an absolutely ridiculous decision by GTR to place the first class where they have. What planet are they on with this one?

Meanwhile, I happened to use 2x387 last night. I heard quite a few moans about the seating. One person was visibly shuffling throughout the journey as he clearly couldn't get comfortable, and someone else got up to stand mid-journey and remarked to the person sitting opposite that he "couldn't stand these seats any longer". The carriage I was in had one of the sliding doors constantly opening and closing too, and the PIS was all over the place. Despite the train being fairly lightly loaded, it felt crowded - the 387 simply isn't as good user of the space compared to the 365. And the air conditioning didn't seem to be doing much good either, the train was hot and stuffy.

It's a shame because the Electrostar is fundamentally a good train, but if this is the future then the future's car. Will be taking 2x317 tonight, the 1980s train is simply more comfortable.

 

[Class315]

It's not uncommon to see a GA 321 at XHE, They run between Ilford and XHE as 5L17. Over the last week it's become more apparent that diagrams previously run by 321's are being replaced by other GN units. More diagrams are due to be stepped up from c. 28/11, although things may change.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's not uncommon to see a GA 321 at XHE, They run between Ilford and XHE as 5L17. Over the last week it's become more apparent that diagrams previously run by 321's are being replaced by other GN units. More diagrams are due to be stepped up from c. 28/11, although things may change.

I guess that is good news that 387s won't be directly replacing 321s. Hopefully we will get 365s on the busiest services

 

[43096]

The first class situation is a real problem at certain locations in the peaks, where people know where to stand on the platform to board - now there is the situation that you have a lottery whether the first class will be at one end or the other. This is an issue for both first and standard class passengers. Notwithstanding the fact that it's in a bad location for first-class passengers, this shows how this was an absolutely ridiculous decision by GTR to place the first class where they have. What planet are they on with this one?



Meanwhile, I happened to use 2x387 last night. I heard quite a few moans about the seating. One person was visibly shuffling throughout the journey as he clearly couldn't get comfortable, and someone else got up to stand mid-journey and remarked to the person sitting opposite that he "couldn't stand these seats any longer". The carriage I was in had one of the sliding doors constantly opening and closing too, and the PIS was all over the place. Despite the train being fairly lightly loaded, it felt crowded - the 387 simply isn't as good user of the space compared to the 365. And the air conditioning didn't seem to be doing much good either, the train was hot and stuffy.



It's a shame because the Electrostar is fundamentally a good train, but if this is the future then the future's car. Will be taking 2x317 tonight, the 1980s train is simply more comfortable.

No no no! You are wrong. Ironing board seats are the greatest thing ever. "Class 377/5" says so and he must be right as he's a GTR poodle....

 

[bramling]

No no no! You are wrong. Ironing board seats are the greatest thing ever. "Class 377/5" says so and he must be right as he's a GTR poodle....

I'm still laughing at the suggestion First Class should be put at the inner end of a vehicle because it's "more peaceful". I deliberately sat behind the cab in a class 387 the other day to see how much noise came through the bulkhead, and I could barely hear the AWS let alone anything else.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm still laughing at the suggestion First Class should be put at the inner end of a vehicle because it's "more peaceful". I deliberately sat behind the cab in a class 387 the other day to see how much noise came through the bulkhead, and I could barely hear the AWS let alone anything else.

I must admit this was a decision made by someone who doesn't travel on trains or understand the impact on dwell times. If the units were all facing the same way that would help but people curse when 321401 shows up.

Behind the cab was ok on Thameslink, it is ok on the 365s and will be OK on the 700s. Behind cab = simple for customers as always in same place.

As for the seats. 365 wins out right. Not heard anyone yet say they like the ironing boards. Agree it is a shame the ones on the 375s were nice.

 

[bramling]

I must admit this was a decision made by someone who doesn't travel on trains or understand the impact on dwell times. If the units were all facing the same way that would help but people curse when 321401 shows up.

Behind the cab was ok on Thameslink, it is ok on the 365s and will be OK on the 700s. Behind cab = simple for customers as always in same place.

As for the seats. 365 wins out right. Not heard anyone yet say they like the ironing boards. Agree it is a shame the ones on the 375s were nice.

Apart from the lack of air conditioning, the class 365 is simply superior to the class 387.

Actually, based on the 387 I was on last night, which was far too hot and stuffy, I'd prefer the 365 on that score too.

It's really noticeable how people don't like the ironing boards. Some people comment aloud about it. Others can be seen shuffling around or putting their bags under their feet to give themselves a footrest (which slightly mitigates against the over-upright posture).

 

[jon0844]

I'm still laughing at the suggestion First Class should be put at the inner end of a vehicle because it's "more peaceful". I deliberately sat behind the cab in a class 387 the other day to see how much noise came through the bulkhead, and I could barely hear the AWS let alone anything else.

I can never see how putting it in the middle of the train can make first class more peaceful, as it means you have to let people walk through.

Sure, you might get people boarding in first class and having to move down, but that's a lot less likely (if marked clearly) than having people board in standard, realise it's full, and walking along the train.

On my last journey, first class was pretty full and I suspect people were ignoring the fact. It wasn't declassified and there were no announcements, and I seriously doubt GN has suddenly seen a lot more first class ticket sales.

First class in this instance was at the country end of the London-bound service.

 

[bramling]

I can never see how putting it in the middle of the train can make first class more peaceful, as it means you have to let people walk through.

Sure, you might get people boarding in first class and having to move down, but that's a lot less likely (if marked clearly) than having people board in standard, realise it's full, and walking along the train.

On my last journey, first class was pretty full and I suspect people were ignoring the fact. It wasn't declassified and there were no announcements, and I seriously doubt GN has suddenly seen a lot more first class ticket sales.

First class in this instance was at the country end of the London-bound service.

It doesn't help that it doesn't look different to standard class - because it isn't. To be honest, the first class provision on the 387s is disgraceful.

Sooner or later, there will be some kind of platform/train interface incident if the current situation continues. What is happening is there is a shuffle of passengers on the platform as they see their chosen door is first-class only - which means they will now be at the back of the queue for standard seats. Meanwhile, first class passengers also have to shuffle. This simply shouldn't be needing to happen on crowded platforms. It's an entirely predictable situation, and is simply another indicator that GTR is not a competent operator.

At least with the 317s no one door is first-class only. It's a pain on the 321s, but at least it's tucked away at one end of the train (although one unit seems to have somehow got turned in the last couple of months).

 

[jon0844]

It doesn't help that it doesn't look different to standard class. To be honest, the first class provision on the 387s is disgraceful.

Agreed, but perfect for GTR who did such a terrible, even negligent, job of refreshing first class on the other GN trains, such that people wouldn't be able to tell they were in first class there either.

Okay, the seats ARE better on a 365 and 321 so you can argue it must be obvious. There are proper tables on the 365s (now folding on the latest refreshed ones, so you can get in and out easier) but there are often no first class stickers on the walls and windows, relying solely on antimacassars on all the stock which can be removed deliberately, accidentally or just obscured by heads.

The 365s have a warning you're entering first class by writing FIRST CLASS on each door, yet on many services they're locked open. So you have to rely on poster signs, which I DO NOT regard as sufficient warning.

Make first class blatantly obvious as most TOCs do, then enforce things fairly. You'd almost think GTR wants to trick people into going there to make money...

I got tired of sending photos of first class accommodation that I saw as poorly signed to GTR, as nothing was ever done.

The 387s are mad because you go through a sliding door that says nothing so wouldn't necessarily even think you might be in first class at all. A bit like walking through a 377/5 where you are in a declassified first class section and go through the doors to the next unit where it IS first class. Going through the gangway, you'll encounter no signs at all.

(Sorry for the long rant, but it does annoy me. And I say that as someone who has NO problem with people who DO know they shouldn't be in first class being prosecuted).

 

[Mordac]

The obvious solution is to get rid of first class on all GTR trains.

 

[43096]

The obvious solution is to get rid of first class on all GTR trains.

Or getting rid of GTR for a company that is vaguely competent would be a big improvement.

 

[bramling]

The obvious solution is to get rid of first class on all GTR trains.

At least it would resolve the current issue with the 387s.

Given how the first class on the 387s is identical to standard, identically uncomfortable due to the ironing board seats, there's not much point bothering with it anyway.

 

[stut]

It's a shame because the Electrostar is fundamentally a good train, but if this is the future then the future's car. Will be taking 2x317 tonight, the 1980s train is simply more comfortable.

Goes to show you can't please everybody - I used to take the 17:10 to Hitchin and then change, specifically to avoid spending any more time on a 317 than necessary!

 

[387star]

Apart from the lack of air conditioning, the class 365 is simply superior to the class 387.

Actually, based on the 387 I was on last night, which was far too hot and stuffy, I'd prefer the 365 on that score too.

It's really noticeable how people don't like the ironing boards. Some people comment aloud about it. Others can be seen shuffling around or putting their bags under their feet to give themselves a footrest (which slightly mitigates against the over-upright posture).

Most interesting as I haven't been aware of many complaints on thameslink about the seats... I think they take getting used to. The excellent leg room and arm rests help their case

The 700s have a different seat base I think which seems lumpier than the 387s

Also someone mentioned 377/5s which reminds me they are swapping the original slightly different first class seat covers (that used to also be fitted to the 377/4 first class before their refresh) with the priority seat covers (standard southern trim on unrefurbished 377/5s) I am guessing because the priority. Seat covers are not in stock or because they are not replacing any seat covers during their current c6

 

[Failed Unit]

No you can't. I rate the 313s ahead of both the 317s and 321s.

As said many times my issue with the 387s is the reduction in crush loaded capacity. It is unlikely i will ever get a seat when I travel. I would like to physically board, which is now doubtful.

 

[Class 170101]

Still a few 321s at Hornsey this morning, but notably more 387s than I've noticed before. In fact, there's a Greater Anglia 321 sat outside the depot this evening - anyone any idea why that would be there?

Tyre turning. Don't forget Crossrail works at Ilford Depot equal less space there currently.

 

[jopsuk]

The obvious solution is to get rid of first class on all GTR trains.

On a thread on the 700s there was a claim that Govia proposed removing it from the TL route (including future TL) but at the time the DfT wasn't keen. Perhaps when the franchise is next let in 2021 it will be reconsidered, but by then the 387s will be Cambridge Express route and losing 1st from that is less likely

 

[Skimble19]

What really isn't helping on some units at the moment is where First Class has been moved from behind the cabs to the end of one carriage, they've moved the yellow line but forgot to move the nice big "1st" stickers from the delightful green doors. Whoops.

 

[jon0844]

What really isn't helping on some units at the moment is where First Class has been moved from behind the cabs to the end of one carriage, they've moved the yellow line but forgot to move the nice big "1st" stickers from the delightful green doors. Whoops.

How does that happen? I mean, someone doing the work would clearly notice and say something to a manager - and then what happens?

 

[guilbert]

I've had a few trips on the 387s now and have noticed that they don't seem to do more than 100 mph even when they're running late, the line speed is 115 and running on greens. Am I right in thinking they can do 110? Anyone know why they don't?

 

[Class377/5]

I've had a few trips on the 387s now and have noticed that they don't seem to do more than 100 mph even when they're running late, the line speed is 115 and running on greens. Am I right in thinking they can do 110? Anyone know why they don't?

387s are limited to 100mph on GN.

On a thread on the 700s there was a claim that Govia proposed removing it from the TL route (including future TL) but at the time the DfT wasn't keen. Perhaps when the franchise is next let in 2021 it will be reconsidered, but by then the 387s will be Cambridge Express route and losing 1st from that is less likely

Was FCC who asked the DfT to remove all first class on the basis of passengers numbers growing so much it would provide extra capacity.

 

[physics34]

387s are limited to 100mph on GN.



Was FCC who asked the DfT to remove all first class on the basis of passengers numbers growing so much it would provide extra capacity.

I do agree with this in the most part.......you actually have to be slightly bonkers to pay extra for 1st class on them anyway..unless your company is paying for it.

I would suggest a smaller section, but of very high spec and comfort levels (even raising the price)... just to draw in £££s as there ARE people willing to pay.
When it comes to the Gatwick 387s thought there IS call for 1st class and i would say it is a necessity.