Class 387 to GN

[jon0844]

I think a lot of people have ditched GN at weekends. I know a fair few myself who have. Personally I can't remember the last time I took a GN train on a weekend. Nonetheless I can imagine the 387s are pretty hellish inwards from Welwyn -- and there's a lot more of this to come from February when the majority of the weekend stopping services will be formed of 1x387.

I had to use GTR when I got back from Paris (an hour late due to a delayed TGV) and was surprised to see that our train was running! I did wonder if, as has happened previous, January is proving to be better for staffing now drivers perhaps want to earn some extra money to pay for Christmas?

Other than this one trip, I also avoid weekends. I'll use Thameslink from St Albans, or drive to Cheshunt and travel from there (engineering work dependent).

 

[bramling]

the 387s were a like-for-like replacement of 29 Class 319 units. And while I still wait to reserve judgement on the seating type, I was always under the impression that (for Cambridgeshire commuters at least) the 3+2 cushion seats of the Class 317/321s are universally loathed.

You may well be right that they prefer 365s, however that doesn't automatically mean that they like the 387s.

Sure the 317s/321s are cramped when every seat is taken, but evidently people prefer this to standing, which is the reality of the 387s.

Meanwhile for off-peak journeys the 317s/321s are spacious, whereas on a 387 there's more chance you'll have someone sitting next to you or taking up your legroom by sitting directly opposite.

I'm sure I remember that WAGN got complaints when the 317/2s were refurbished and changed from 2+3 to 2+2, although perhaps this may not have been the Cambridgeshire users complaining! Since they travel in from further out, perhaps seat availability isn't quite such an issue for them as they have a higher chance of securing one.

 

[D365]

So do you think that the same complaints will be had when the Class 700s and (in particular) the Class 717s are introduced with an even greater emphasis on standing room?

 

[bramling]

So do you think that the same complaints will be had when the Class 700s and (in particular) the Class 717s are introduced with an even greater emphasis on standing room?

I'd lay a wager that there will be a lot of complaints about the 700s and their dubious seating arrangements. If people don't like the 387s then they're not going to like the 700s.

Not so sure about the 717s. I think there will be some grievance for some journeys where people will be boarding on the margins of seat availability and the journey to London is still quite long, for example places like Cuffley. Further in there will doubtlessly be some benefit, plus of course ditching the space wasted by middle cabs on 2x313 formations. All in all though, longer formations or extra services are what's needed, and it doesn't seem like there's going to too much of that for the Hertford route. Some 8-car formations on the inner-suburban services would be welcomed with open arms - but naturally they can't go to the Moorgate branch.

 

[jon0844]

The spacious aisles should make a big difference between the 700/717s and the 387s.

That's by far the biggest problem. They have 2+2 seating and should, on paper, offer as much room as a 365. They don't even come close.

The aisles seem little wider than a 317! I think the arm rests are part of the problem here, as well as the higher seat backs (much higher than a 365, but I accept this is necessary) which means you can find yourself bumping into them if you're carrying a backpack or 'manbag' in my case.

I know a lot of people dislike the 700 seats being so far over, but the aisle space is incredible for our limited gauging. Two people can pass each other, which should really benefit GN passengers.

Sure, they're NOT going to like the increased chance of standing, but they'll hopefully get used to the more likely prospect of getting on the train.

And let's also consider that the extra space will be good for sucking up passengers left behind when a previous train is delayed or cancelled during disruption.

 

[bramling]

The spacious aisles should make a big difference between the 700/717s and the 387s.

That's by far the biggest problem. They have 2+2 seating and should, on paper, offer as much room as a 365. They don't even come close.

The aisles seem little wider than a 317! I think the arm rests are part of the problem here, as well as the higher seat backs (much higher than a 365, but I accept this is necessary) which means you can find yourself bumping into them if you're carrying a backpack or 'manbag' in my case.

I know a lot of people dislike the 700 seats being so far over, but the aisle space is incredible for our limited gauging. Two people can pass each other, which should really benefit GN passengers.

Sure, they're NOT going to like the increased chance of standing, but they'll hopefully get used to the more likely prospect of getting on the train.

And let's also consider that the extra space will be good for sucking up passengers left behind when a previous train is delayed or cancelled during disruption.

The trouble is we get virtually all of this with the 365s, but at the same time as being able to sit comfortably - which most people find rather important! The gangway in the 700s is artificially narrowed when people sit hanging over the aisle seats, which is something I've noticed, and I note MR has picked up on this. People being left behind is generally not an issue on the GN outer suburban network (apart from, as you say, during disruption), and this is of course on what is today a mainly 8-car railway.

 

[Hadders]

So do you think that the same complaints will be had when the Class 700s and (in particular) the Class 717s are introduced with an even greater emphasis on standing room?

I get why we need to have more standing room but it could've been achieved by having seats with a bit more leg room, seat back tables and a bit more padding. The bay seats could've been fitted with small tables (as per the 365). None of this would impact on the standing room available or on the dwell times at station stops.

Instead what we're going to get is bargain basement, rock hard seats, no leg room, nowhere to place a coffee or phone. But for premium prices.

 

[physics34]

I get why we need to have more standing room but it could've been achieved by having seats with a bit more leg room, seat back tables and a bit more padding. The bay seats could've been fitted with small tables (as per the 365). None of this would impact on the standing room available or on the dwell times at station stops.

Instead what we're going to get is bargain basement, rock hard seats, no leg room, nowhere to place a coffee or phone. But for premium prices.

exactly.

 

[Spur365]

Having used the 387 many times now albeit only the 0618 Hit-Kgx and 2122 Kgx-Hit (not the busiest of trains), I really have got used to them. So much better than 317/321 in all areas. The 321 could never keep to the timetable on clear runs but the 387 sure does. The 0618 is rammed by Knebworth but from me so far good times. See what the future holds!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, they do make progress and should help with punctuality by being able to recover from small delays (perhaps like longer dwell times due to overcrowding!).

Sadly it seems they won't be able to do much after a fatality at/near Hatfield this morning.

 

[Hadders]

Having used the 387 many times now albeit only the 0618 Hit-Kgx and 2122 Kgx-Hit (not the busiest of trains), I really have got used to them. So much better than 317/321 in all areas. The 321 could never keep to the timetable on clear runs but the 387 sure does. The 0618 is rammed by Knebworth but from me so far good times. See what the future holds!

I bet you wouldn't be so complimentary if you were a Knebworth passenger.

 

[Class377/5]

I'd lay a wager that there will be a lot of complaints about the 700s and their dubious seating arrangements. If people don't like the 387s then they're not going to like the 700s.

Not so sure about the 717s. I think there will be some grievance for some journeys where people will be boarding on the margins of seat availability and the journey to London is still quite long, for example places like Cuffley. Further in there will doubtlessly be some benefit, plus of course ditching the space wasted by middle cabs on 2x313 formations. All in all though, longer formations or extra services are what's needed, and it doesn't seem like there's going to too much of that for the Hertford route. Some 8-car formations on the inner-suburban services would be welcomed with open arms - but naturally they can't go to the Moorgate branch.

It will be very interesting to see how the GN loadings transfer post the full Thameslink timetable in December 2018.

 

[bramling]

The 0618 is rammed by Knebworth

And there you make the point that many others have been making.

You are, of course, joining the service near its point of origin - not everyone has this luxury.

Even if the service was lengthened, 2x387 still wouldn't offer as much capacity and seating as 2x365, and far less seating than 2x317 or 2x321.

I've used 1P80 the 2122 service you describe on occasions. As you say, normally comparatively lightly loaded. However since changing from 2x365 to 2x387 the service feels more crowded - more likely to have someone sitting immediately adjacent or opposite.

 

[LdnNiko]

The spacious aisles should make a big difference between the 700/717s and the 387s.

That's by far the biggest problem. They have 2+2 seating and should, on paper, offer as much room as a 365. They don't even come close.

The aisles seem little wider than a 317! I think the arm rests are part of the problem here, as well as the higher seat backs (much higher than a 365, but I accept this is necessary) which means you can find yourself bumping into them if you're carrying a backpack or 'manbag' in my case.

I know a lot of people dislike the 700 seats being so far over, but the aisle space is incredible for our limited gauging. Two people can pass each other, which should really benefit GN passengers.

Sure, they're NOT going to like the increased chance of standing, but they'll hopefully get used to the more likely prospect of getting on the train.

And let's also consider that the extra space will be good for sucking up passengers left behind when a previous train is delayed or cancelled during disruption.

I finally had the opportunity to have my first journey aboard a 387 (albeit with GWR). What a complete disappointment!
Whereas originally I expected seats similar to 377s before the /6, today's three-stop journey between West Ealing and Paddington disavowed me of the notion that this thread was replete with Moaning Minnies - I can now truly empathise with you all.

Pros:

• Modern, clean design inside
• Faultless PIS & announcements
• Seat back tables & sockets
• That GWR paint scheme

Cons:

• Seat (everything about it)
• Arm rests protruding into valuable aisle space (compared to Class 700s)
• Lateral lurch, even at moderate speed

Previously, I had eagerly anticipated the arrival of the shiny, new 387s, promising an upgrade on the slower and somewhat tattered 317s. However given today's "experience" confirming style over substance, I am no longer enthused about the appearance of this new rolling stock on GN.

Such a shame that whoever designed/placed the order of these interiors thought that the tried, tested and favourably received 365 interior layout should be "improved" upon, cos, you know, they're well old. [/Rant]

 

[bramling]

I finally had the opportunity to have my first journey aboard a 387 (albeit with GWR). What a complete disappointment!
Whereas originally I expected seats similar to 377s before the /6, today's three-stop journey between West Ealing and Paddington disavowed me of the notion that this thread was replete with Moaning Minnies - I can now truly empathise with you all.

Pros:

• Modern, clean design inside
• Faultless PIS & announcements
• Seat back tables & sockets
• That GWR paint scheme

Cons:

• Seat (everything about it)
• Arm rests protruding into valuable aisle space (compared to Class 700s)
• Lateral lurch, even at moderate speed

Previously, I had eagerly anticipated the arrival of the shiny, new 387s, promising an upgrade on the slower and somewhat tattered 317s. However given today's "experience" confirming style over substance, I am no longer enthused about the appearance of this new rolling stock on GN.

Such a shame that whoever designed/placed the order of these interiors thought that the tried, tested and favourably received 365 interior layout should be "improved" upon, cos, you know, they're well old. [/Rant]

I think we just have to hope that the 21x 365s currently planned to leave GTR end up staying. Maybe we should start up a petition?! I did see a glimmer of hope in one of the magazines which hinted more could stay, although they didn't quote a source for this so unfortunately I'm sceptical. At least when the Thameslink Programme results in the timetable falling apart, as it surely will, there will be some spare quality stock available to resurrect a quality service. Wishful thinking perhaps.

 

[adamedwards]

Given that demand on GN routes continues to increase keeping more 365s to run post 2018 capacity enhancing trains to KX has to be a good idea. Very pleased to note platform extension work at Foxton, Meldreth and Shepreth is due to start on 19.2.17. Getting 8 cars as the minimum standard train is much overdue. Which shows how much demand there is.

 

[MikePJ]

Very pleased to note platform extension work at Foxton, Meldreth and Shepreth is due to start on 19.2.17.

As reported in the Cambridge News, link on this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2858265#post2858265

 

[physics34]

saw a white 387/1 inbetween 2x GX 387/2s today on a gatwick express service.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I think we just have to hope that the 21x 365s currently planned to leave GTR end up staying. Maybe we should start up a petition?! I did see a glimmer of hope in one of the magazines which hinted more could stay, although they didn't quote a source for this so unfortunately I'm sceptical. At least when the Thameslink Programme results in the timetable falling apart, as it surely will, there will be some spare quality stock available to resurrect a quality service. Wishful thinking perhaps.

We can but hope...

Certainly as of November, my response to a question on the Passenger Panel was that "the rest won't be staying", and under current proposals would only be used for the peak-time/evening Peterborough extras. But this is GTR and everything could have changed since then...

(Mind you, I guess it's all subjective - another respondent add a comment to my query, noting that the 365s were no longer suited for GN outers because the door spaces post-refurb are too narrow for luggage to fit comfortably.)

 

[D365]

saw a white 387/1 inbetween 2x GX 387/2s today on a gatwick express service.

That's a new one :P

But probably more relevant to the Class 387 general discussion.

 

[Class377/5]

That's a new one :P

But probably more relevant to the Class 387 general discussion.

I can make it relevant to this thread. 387124 is on loan to GatEx after being released from Thameslink over the weekend. It's a fully GatEx unit with PIS, posters etc internally.

It will now be the last 387/1 to transfer to GN.

 

[physics34]

I can make it relevant to this thread. 387124 is on loan to GatEx after being released from Thameslink over the weekend. It's a fully GatEx unit with PIS, posters etc internally.

It will now be the last 387/1 to transfer to GN.

im glad my eyes were not deceiving me then! ANy idea why its on loan? I cant imagine there already being a shortage of 387/2s?!

 

[chickenwings12]

I thought the plan was for GN to keep all 365's anyway now since GWR weren't having them? They really should keep them

As for people constantly moaning about 387's... they're basically brand new trains with AC, power sockets, and airline seats that aren't so low to the ground that you can't even get back up (cough 317) replacing noisey, rusty old cattle trucks and people are STILL finding things to moan about. I think the majority of non-rail enthusiast passengers are happy with them.

Whenever I get a 317 I can very rarely get a seat anyway, and when I do it's usually crammed in with someones legs sprawled out opposite me and too big to fit around. They may have more seats in number but who really sits in that middle seat of 3? I'm sorry but I won't miss 317's or 321's. I really don't find 387's uncomfortable either, they're no different to tube seats.

 

[jon0844]

I find the 387 seats comfortable (seem to be a minority, but same goes for the 700s).

My complaint is more about the lack of room inside for standees, and the narrow aisles (hindered by arm rests) that make it hard to move through the train. Oh, and the stupid first class location (but that's not a fault of the train itself). I guess problems with the PIS are also worth remembering too.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the plan was for GN to keep all 365's anyway now since GWR weren't having them? They really should keep them...

I don't think that's the plan at all. I think it has been suggested earlier in one of the many 387 threads that the GN is now getting more 387s than whatever the originally intended number of 377s was, and so are now keeping a smaller number of 365s than originally intended.

 

[D365]

I'm sure that when the 29 Class 387/1s were agreed, the additional units were to be an expansion of the final Great Northern fleet and not just to replace a greater number of Class 365s.

 

[physics34]

still no known destination for the remaining 19 (?) x Class 365s, unless of course the info hasnt been released yet.

 

[physics34]

I thought the plan was for GN to keep all 365's anyway now since GWR weren't having them? They really should keep them

As for people constantly moaning about 387's... they're basically brand new trains with AC, power sockets, and airline seats that aren't so low to the ground that you can't even get back up (cough 317) replacing noisey, rusty old cattle trucks and people are STILL finding things to moan about. I think the majority of non-rail enthusiast passengers are happy with them.

Whenever I get a 317 I can very rarely get a seat anyway, and when I do it's usually crammed in with someones legs sprawled out opposite me and too big to fit around. They may have more seats in number but who really sits in that middle seat of 3? I'm sorry but I won't miss 317's or 321's. I really don't find 387's uncomfortable either, they're no different to tube seats.

When the 700s are in service there should be a net gain in seating anyway, i believe, its just the period up until the core opens that will be a struggle.

The first class situation is an absolute joke though and it would actually help if the first class section LOOKED like first class in the first place with better seating, different contrasting seat covers and better signage.

The seats are too hard and the 387 ride quality isnt good enough. The seats nbeed to be softer,/ sprung to compensate.

 

[Class377/5]

im glad my eyes were not deceiving me then! ANy idea why its on loan? I cant imagine there already being a shortage of 387/2s?!

One of the 387/2 needs to go to Derby for some work and the fleet doesn't have the slack for several months worth of a missing unit.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't think that's the plan at all. I think it has been suggested earlier in one of the many 387 threads that the GN is now getting more 387s than whatever the originally intended number of 377s was, and so are now keeping a smaller number of 365s than originally intended.

No. Original plan was

19x 377
19 or 20x 365*

Plan now is

29x 387
19 or 20x 365*

387s are to be used on Cambridge branch where as the 365 are for Peterborough in general practice.

* honestly can't remember the exact number.