Class 387 to GN

[Failed Unit]

Given the poor signage, you could just walk into first class, remove all the antimacassars and put them on random seats throughout the train! I bet that would confuse people.

I think they would have a riot is anyone was told not to stand in the "1st class" doorways. Space is at a premium already. If the doorway is lost to the standing passengers they have succeeded in making something worse than even the 317s. (Which you could have sort of accepted if first class was in a similar position - but most of us want it behind the cabs so we know how to avoid it whichever way the unit faces.)

 

[jon0844]

If GTR put in sliding doors in the vestibule, fine. But why spend the money (which they obviously wouldn't, so not sure why I even said it!) when you could just put first at each end?

It would actually mean that everyone would know that if a 387 or 365 turned up (317s and 321s having gone), first class is always at the front or back of each set.

And then the 700s come. Well, what do you know.. front and back on those too!

It's a no-brainer. Or maybe that should be someone had no brain when deciding to relocate first class for absolutely no logical reason what-so-ever!

GTR wouldn't even need to work out what's what to display on the screen to benefit those first class passengers. Oh, wait. They don't even do that on GN so those who have paid extra have to rush around on the platform when their train turns up.

Can anyone please tell me the logic of what GTR has done on the 387s? Was it a 'f*** you' by someone who has since left the company?!

 

[Failed Unit]

Was pleasantly surprised to see the 1758 tonight as 2x bins.

 

[Hadders]

If GTR put in sliding doors in the vestibule, fine. But why spend the money (which they obviously wouldn't, so not sure why I even said it!) when you could just put first at each end?

It would actually mean that everyone would know that if a 387 or 365 turned up (317s and 321s having gone), first class is always at the front or back of each set.

And then the 700s come. Well, what do you know.. front and back on those too!

It's a no-brainer. Or maybe that should be someone had no brain when deciding to relocate first class for absolutely no logical reason what-so-ever!

GTR wouldn't even need to work out what's what to display on the screen to benefit those first class passengers. Oh, wait. They don't even do that on GN so those who have paid extra have to rush around on the platform when their train turns up.

Can anyone please tell me the logic of what GTR has done on the 387s? Was it a 'f*** you' by someone who has since left the company?!

This just sums up GTR. If anyone relatively senior from GTR reads this thread please do something about it. In the grand scheme of things it maybe not the biggest of issues but it just smacks of incompetence.

You can bet that the person who decided to put 1st where it is won't have left the company. I bet they'll have been promoted!

 

[Class377/5]

Why I'm not sure this is being discussed, the the choice to put first class where it is wasn't GTR but Bombardier. They designed the first class as the no driving end of one DMOS. It's been the same with the 377/6, /7, 387/1 and 387/2s!

Thameslink simply used the end as that's what all other past, present and future stock had done, regardless of the actual location of the builders first class. Worth noting Govia ordered the 387/1 but it's First but put first class at the end. Not that there's much difference beside seat colouring!

 

[jopsuk]

are you sure about that? What makes the non-dribing end of the DM vehicle particularly "first class"? Why would Bombardier make that call, when they effectively offer a vehicle shell into which an operator can specify an interior?

 

[jon0844]

They should have kept first at the ends. Who cares what Bombardier thought best? The seats are the same anyway, so just move the stickers, seat covers and yellow strip.

The door stickers on the outside are already correct!

 

[Class377/5]

are you sure about that? What makes the non-dribing end of the DM vehicle particularly "first class"? Why would Bombardier make that call, when they effectively offer a vehicle shell into which an operator can specify an interior?

Yes I am. If you look on an actual unit you will see one end has different seat colouring from the rest of the train. This is the area that Bombardier choose.

Remember when the 387/1 were ordered for TL they were only for a few years and their home beyond that was unknown so Bombardier produced an generic unit based on what it was doing at the time placing first class where it believed there be the most requirement for. So what an operator would choose wasn't actually a factor in the build of 387101-129.

 

[jon0844]

Different seat colours won't matter. Most people wouldn't notice, or care.

Wonder why Bombardier thought that was a good place for first class as a generic design.

 

[387star]

The same on gatwick express the first class seat covers are plain red whereas the rest of the train have a pattern

Remember two first class compartments are merged together so this may affect where first class goes... More seats in the first class area have full sizes tables also

I think the gatwick express should have a similar first class to the 700s which are very well fitted in first class

 

[47802]

Yes I am. If you look on an actual unit you will see one end has different seat colouring from the rest of the train. This is the area that Bombardier choose.

Remember when the 387/1 were ordered for TL they were only for a few years and their home beyond that was unknown so Bombardier produced an generic unit based on what it was doing at the time placing first class where it believed there be the most requirement for. So what an operator would choose wasn't actually a factor in the build of 387101-129.

I personally doubt that, given it was Southern that ordered the trains on behalf of Daft, surely is was up to them to specify the interior of the train after all the interior is in Southern Colours, Bombardier might have proposed a spec and Southern said yes that will do, but If find it hard to believe that the procurer of the train didn't have some say in its internal specification.

 

[43096]

I personally doubt that, given it was Southern that ordered the trains on behalf of Daft, surely is was up to them to specify the interior of the train after all the interior is in Southern Colours, Bombardier might have proposed a spec and Southern said yes that will do, but If find it hard to believe that the procurer of the train didn't have some say in its internal specification.

Agreed. Especially given the same basic (read inadequate comfort) interior configuration was perpetuated by the same operator for the supposedly higher quality Gatwick Express services.

The exterior of 387101-129 is also in the basic Southern livery, but the lighter green elements have not been applied.

 

[Hadders]

The other thing to consider is the ends of each unit are generally quieter as people generally think that is the 1st class area! Admittedly I've only made 3 GN journeys on 387s (and all at busy 'Off Peak' times) but the ends of each unit were noticably quieter than the rest of the train. Even 1st class was busier which imo tells you something is wrong.

 

[jon0844]

The other thing to consider is the ends of each unit are generally quieter as people generally think that is the 1st class area! Admittedly I've only made 3 GN journeys on 387s (and all at busy 'Off Peak' times) but the ends of each unit were noticably quieter than the rest of the train. Even 1st class was busier which imo tells you something is wrong.

GN users will be used to where first class was on other stock. The 365s and 321s were very clear. The 317s less so.

It's mad to have copied the 317 idea, but even worse as it's in an ens carriage. Coach 2 or 3 did at least save a long walk for those actually wanting first class. Just one carriage apart depending on which way round it was, so standing in the middle was fine.

 

[ert47]

I personally doubt that, given it was Southern that ordered the trains on behalf of Daft, surely is was up to them to specify the interior of the train after all the interior is in Southern Colours, Bombardier might have proposed a spec and Southern said yes that will do, but If find it hard to believe that the procurer of the train didn't have some say in its internal specification.

I'd say it would be down to costs. Didn't the 387s follow on from the 377/6/7 build?

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely porterbrook would actually have the say of the configuration. They own them and need to find another home for them. (Had they not stayed with GTR - which wasn't certain at order time). Poor design such as this makes them less desirable for the next operating company

The manufacturer wouldn't care as the have sold them.

Likewise GTR could have said sort it and provide decent seats or we keep the 365s. Market forces.

 

[notverydeep]

2C91 (0657 Cambridge- London) going soon. Let's hope people are not left behind as a result.

I took refuge aboard 317339 + 317342 from Welwyn Garden City on 2C91 (the 0755) this morning. I got a seat in the rear coach, but plenty of standees on this, way more than 2C93 (the 0825) used to have back in class 317 days.

Reflecting more on the class 387 first class situation. The RPI yesterday told me that they were responding to complaints from first class ticket holders. But have they really thought this through? Trains like 2C91 and 2C93 each carry at most 4 to 6 people across both first class sections. Yet the seating capacity of standard class has been reduced from 542 seats per 8 car train to 404 per 8 car train, while the first class capacity has been reduced from 44 seats per 8 car train to, err... 44 seats per 8 car train. Across the three key trains from Welwyn Garden City that removes 414 standard class seats.

To put this in perspective, the 414 passengers who must now stand account for at least £1,169,136 of annual revenue for GTR (assuming they pay the equivalent of a season ticket from Welwyn Garden City - many will pay more), whereas the 18 first class passengers (6 per train) account for a mere £81,360.

And yet someone in GTR, or several people in a meeting decided that it is a high priority to be seen to be responding to the complaints from first class ticket holders. I have to ask my railway industry colleagues, "what were you thinking?" How can it be a good idea to further annoy many of your 414 customers, customers you have already given a substantial worsening of their experience?

I'm sure, if I had a first class ticket I would complain too, but not just about the presence of standard class passengers, but the seats which are clearly exactly the same as standard class and pretty poor even by the standard of standard class, plus the completely random position of first class on the train! But I fail to see what yesterday's exercise achieved other than annoyance on everybody's part. Even with the RPI babysitting throughout on yesterday's 2C93, the one poor man who clearly was a first class passenger looked very uncomfortable and embarrassed by the whole thing - as Jonmorris0844 observed, passengers were not actually removed from the first class area or charged an excess fare - the RPI clearly also thought that would cause a riot, they were just made to stand all the way!

I'm afraid I have to disagree with 377/5 and others further up the thread about the first class being part of the design specification. It may be true that a door was inserted into one of the driving vehicles with a nod to possible future use as first class, but the train was self-evidently specified to fitted out as Standard Class only! And on these three peak trains, that is clearly how it should be used, the revenue gained from the few people who do use first class for such short hauls, surely can't justify the RPI hours and aggravation it will take to keep them sufficiently empty to provide anything approaching a customer experience worthy of the label first class.

Nothing about the train need be changed to facilitate this, simply downgrade the services to be standard class only on timetable leaflets and posters, and add an announcement (as is already common on Thameslink) saying, "customers may use any part of this train, the first class is not in use". Where the 387s are adequate to carry the load, as they may well be on the 12 car services from further out and trains after the high peak, such as the 0859 from Welwyn Garden City (2R35 0835 Letchworth to London Kings Cross), then the timetable would continue to show first class and announcement wouldn't play. The situation could be re-evaluated once the 700s are fully rolled out and the new Thameslink timetable introduced. This would even align with DfT policy on other franchises, which has been to reduce first class where demand pressure was not easily met by other ways - an example being the FGW HSTs on shorter routes. If they did this, at least 132 of the 414 passengers would feel a bit better about GTR...

 

[Mordac]

Just get rid of first class. Easiest way to solve the problem. It's indistinguishable from standard anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just get rid of first class. Easiest way to solve the problem. It's indistinguishable from standard anyway.

You mean like they are when turning up on some services already. Potters Bar for example only gets these in standard only form in the peak. (As most of the longer distance services don't stop)

Be interesting what the first class passengers view is on paying a fortune not to know where to stand. It isn't as if they can walk down the train once the have boarded to find it. It is too crush loaded in the peak. But this is an old gripe. At least the 317s it was one coach not 4 if you got it wrong.

 

[bramling]

Why I'm not sure this is being discussed, the the choice to put first class where it is wasn't GTR but Bombardier. They designed the first class as the no driving end of one DMOS. It's been the same with the 377/6, /7, 387/1 and 387/2s!

Thameslink simply used the end as that's what all other past, present and future stock had done, regardless of the actual location of the builders first class. Worth noting Govia ordered the 387/1 but it's First but put first class at the end. Not that there's much difference beside seat colouring!

That's all well and good, but it's still a stupid place to put it -- for all the many reasons which were posted on this thread when it first appeared, and which are now (entirely predictably) causing problems on a daily basis across the GN route.

GTR could just as easily have chosen to keep it at the ends, like when the units were used on Thameslink. Instead a conscious decision has been made by someone, presumably GTR, to re-locate it. Had it been left alone, and placed at both ends, we wouldn't be in this position now, although of course it would still be inferior to the 365 as it would lack sliding doors from the vestible, which is also a failing in the place where it is currently of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This just sums up GTR. If anyone relatively senior from GTR reads this thread please do something about it. In the grand scheme of things it maybe not the biggest of issues but it just smacks of incompetence.

You can bet that the person who decided to put 1st where it is won't have left the company. I bet they'll have been promoted!

My own message to GTR would be as follows: "Please give up your franchise so we can have someone competent back". First or National Express were both *much* better than this shambles of a TOC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wonder why Bombardier thought that was a good place for first class as a generic design.

It's not. If you're not going to put it adjacent to the cab, it should be in the middle of a carriage between the doors to give a smooth ride, and not have a doorway stuck in the middle of it.

There's no getting away from the fact that whoever specified this simply didn't know what they're doing, and it's patently GTR who have carried on with the nonsense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd say it would be down to costs. Didn't the 387s follow on from the 377/6/7 build?

I have a similar theory. As I understand it, on the 5-car Electrostars the first-class occupies the *outer* end of one driving vehicle. Having the sliding door where it is this gives four and a half windows length worth of first class seating, which is probably about right for a 5-car train. Fast forward a couple of years and we have 4-car versions, if you keep the sliding door where it is then all of a sudden you have quite an over-provision of first-class for a 4-car train, a 4-car train which already has reduced capacity compared to what it's replacing.

Cue someone's not-so-bright dreamworld idea that if you swap the two areas around then you reduce the first class seating to 3 window lengths. Sounds nice on paper, but unfortunately throws up a whole list of real-life problems.

 

[jon0844]

Just get rid of first class. Easiest way to solve the problem. It's indistinguishable from standard anyway.

I actually disagree. Well, sort of.

I mean, if GTR decided to get rid of first class entirely then so be it. I don't pay for first class (well, I did sometimes when you could upgrade cheap with a Gold Card). I use it when it's declassified or if I got it free as part of an advance ticket on another service.

But, people do use first class and so for now they should be given provision. They should be entitled to get a seat when paying more (or at least have a higher chance of getting one). They don't (IMO) need better seating or facilities, if that is because standard class users also get a tablet or power socket/Wi-Fi.

They just need an area they can 'call their own' and is CLEARLY marked so it can be enforced without fuss or anger.

For me, GTR can fix this dead easy by peeling off the yellow strip outside and replacing it at each end. Move the seat covers and put up CLEAR signs behind the cabs.

Heck, they had first class without doors on some of the 377s (or 375s?) so it's been done before. What's the harm now?

So you have a funny positioned internal door. So what? Lock it open.

Job done for very little cost. Or time. It's not as if there are shed loads of them on GN! You could probably do one train in a matter of hours in the depot with a small team. Bar the external livery stuff, you might even be able to do it between the morning and evening peak when it's sat outside Hornsey or wherever.

Then RPIs can actually do what they already do, board at one (or both ends) and go straight to those in first class.

Yes, it means less seats. Yes it could mean someone boarding who finds their 'compartment' full and has to walk through the train, but those a small problems. Problems that people already cope with on 365s since their introduction.

 

[bramling]

I actually disagree. Well, sort of.

I mean, if GTR decided to get rid of first class entirely then so be it. I don't pay for first class (well, I did sometimes when you could upgrade cheap with a Gold Card). I use it when it's declassified or if I got it free as part of an advance ticket on another service.

But, people do use first class and so for now they should be given provision. They should be entitled to get a seat when paying more (or at least have a higher chance of getting one). They don't (IMO) need better seating or facilities, if that is because standard class users also get a tablet or power socket/Wi-Fi.

They just need an area they can 'call their own' and is CLEARLY marked so it can be enforced without fuss or anger.

For me, GTR can fix this dead easy by peeling off the yellow strip outside and replacing it at each end. Move the seat covers and put up CLEAR signs behind the cabs.

Heck, they had first class without doors on some of the 377s (or 375s?) so it's been done before. What's the harm now?

So you have a funny positioned internal door. So what? Lock it open.

Job done for very little cost. Or time. It's not as if there are shed loads of them on GN! You could probably do one train in a matter of hours in the depot with a small team. Bar the external livery stuff, you might even be able to do it between the morning and evening peak when it's sat outside Hornsey or wherever.

Then RPIs can actually do what they already do, board at one (or both ends) and go straight to those in first class.

Yes, it means less seats. Yes it could mean someone boarding who finds their 'compartment' full and has to walk through the train, but those a small problems. Problems that people already cope with on 365s since their introduction.

Yes sounds perfect, then sort out the sliding doors at a later date when funds allow.

Whilst we're at it, how about keeping all the 365s too as they're such a better train.

 

[Failed Unit]

On 387114. You won't be surprised (this is GTR) that it is still waffling out about East Coast rather than coach numbers. It also has a lot of first class passengers as it is at the very front and people won't walk to the already overcrowded coach 2.

So the fix hasn't hit the fleet yet.

I hope a blind persons pressure group picks this up.

Oh and first class trimmed seats are in the front coach further down for info. Standard looks like horizontal stripes. First vertical. Put both exist in the composite coach (in standard class).

I wonder when they hit the Kings Lynn route, if a 365 will be substituted if the queen is travelling. Surely they wouldn't use a 387?

 

[Ianno87]

Just get rid of first class. Easiest way to solve the problem. It's indistinguishable from standard anyway.

I presume you'll be more than happy for your ticket price to go up to compensate for the loss of first class revenue?

 

[notverydeep]

I presume you'll be more than happy for your ticket price to go up to compensate for the loss of first class revenue?

But first class revenue looks increasingly trivial on GN outer suburban routes. Removing 414 peak standard class seats from three key trains Welwyn Garden City impacts £1.1 million plus worth of (standard class) season ticket revenue on trains that carry a bare handful of first class passengers - who collectively contribute no more than £80,000 of which only £30,000 is their ticket price above the standard class season ticket.

For the aggravation that provision on this type of working, that seems a pitiful return. And how many of these are railway managers on PRIV tickets (who contribute no revenue)? Sure it is worth keeping on long distance intercity and a handful of long commuter routes (e.g. trains to Oxford, Winchester, Brighton etc. but its time has surely past on outer-suburban. Probably next year's demand growth will be more than the marginal first class revenue...

 

[Hadders]

Whilst we're at it, how about keeping all the 365s too as they're such a better train.

I wish they would. Excellent interiors compared to the 387s or 700s - even after their recent 'dumbing down'.

I wonder when they hit the Kings Lynn route, if a 365 will be substituted if the queen is travelling. Surely they wouldn't use a 387?

I doubt if HM will travel in a 387. Either a 365 will be substituted, the proper Royal Train will appear or she will shun the railway altogether and go by helicopter.

 

[jon0844]

But first class revenue looks increasingly trivial on GN outer suburban routes. Removing 414 peak standard class seats from three key trains Welwyn Garden City impacts £1.1 million plus worth of (standard class) season ticket revenue on trains that carry a bare handful of first class passengers - who collectively contribute no more than £80,000 of which only £30,000 is their ticket price above the standard class season ticket.

For the aggravation that provision on this type of working, that seems a pitiful return. And how many of these are railway managers on PRIV tickets (who contribute no revenue)? Sure it is worth keeping on long distance intercity and a handful of long commuter routes (e.g. trains to Oxford, Winchester, Brighton etc. but its time has surely past on outer-suburban. Probably next year's demand growth will be more than the marginal first class revenue...

Clearly GTR knows the numbers, but on most peak services where first class is in operation, I'd say first is pretty poorly used.

Perhaps a lot more people are using first class tickets on the faster services to PBO and CBG, and perhaps more people to PBO use Virgin anyway?

You then have those who will upgrade themselves, and at weekends it's quite clear that a lot of rail staff travel in there, along with police officers, revenue officers (who aren't necessarily about to do a check but merely getting somewhere else) and drivers for many TOCs. I know because I've perhaps seen a warrant card being flashed to gateline staff, or simply recognise them (in the case of drivers, it's somewhat obvious from the fact they're usually wearing a badge, a safety rucksack and sometimes even a uniform)!

So, I would love to know the actual numbers of 'proper' first class users of these trains. When a train has declassified first class, it will probably be full up. Likewise, it seems people on 387s are saying 'sod it' and upgrading themselves - but how many people really have paid for first class?

Perhaps more trains could have first class declassified? In recent years, some services that were have had first class added - like the first 'off-peak' service from WGC to KGX. That was declassified for many years as a 4 car 317. Now it is 8 car (a 317 last time I used it) they've brought back first, if you can call it that.

Maybe sales wouldn't be so badly affected by offering first class only on the faster, long-distance, services?

 

[bramling]

Clearly GTR knows the numbers, but on most peak services where first class is in operation, I'd say first is pretty poorly used.

Perhaps a lot more people are using first class tickets on the faster services to PBO and CBG, and perhaps more people to PBO use Virgin anyway?

You then have those who will upgrade themselves, and at weekends it's quite clear that a lot of rail staff travel in there, along with police officers, revenue officers (who aren't necessarily about to do a check but merely getting somewhere else) and drivers for many TOCs. I know because I've perhaps seen a warrant card being flashed to gateline staff, or simply recognise them (in the case of drivers, it's somewhat obvious from the fact they're usually wearing a badge, a safety rucksack and sometimes even a uniform)!

So, I would love to know the actual numbers of 'proper' first class users of these trains. When a train has declassified first class, it will probably be full up. Likewise, it seems people on 387s are saying 'sod it' and upgrading themselves - but how many people really have paid for first class?

Perhaps more trains could have first class declassified? In recent years, some services that were have had first class added - like the first 'off-peak' service from WGC to KGX. That was declassified for many years as a 4 car 317. Now it is 8 car (a 317 last time I used it) they've brought back first, if you can call it that.

Maybe sales wouldn't be so badly affected by offering first class only on the faster, long-distance, services?

I think the presence of some declassified services is simply a historical left-over from when some Welwyn and Letchworth services were booked for 313s. Perhaps some journeys have been left declassified simply so that they could be substituted with 313s without causing an issue.

My perception is first is reasonably well used on the faster Cambridge services, and from places like Hitchin and Royston. Much less so closer towards London and on the Peterborough route. The 387s may change this as people realise how poor the first is on the 387s.

Something has to give, the current situation simply cannot continue - it's a mess all round for everyone, and it's quite clearly now generating complaints. It's all very well attempting to blame Bombardier, which I have to say I don't really buy, but this isn't who passengers pay for their tickets.

 

[jon0844]

I don't blame Bombardier, but don't understand its thinking. If TL used the ends, why did it change on GN?

These trains aren't temporary so will be sticking around for a while. Perhaps GTR thinks they'll work better when off to Kings Lynn. Which sound also mean they won't do anything between now and then.

 

[bramling]

I don't blame Bombardier, but don't understand its thinking. If TL used the ends, why did it change on GN?

These trains aren't temporary so will be sticking around for a while. Perhaps GTR thinks they'll work better when off to Kings Lynn. Which sound also mean they won't do anything between now and then.

I don't see any difference when they transfer to the Fen Line.

They're still going to be stopping frequently, they're still going to be heavily loaded on some services, they're still going to have people walking through, they're still going to be facing different directions, and people are still going to be unhappy. In fact they'll be worse, as I bet the Cambridge commuters will complain more loudly than the Welwyn lot.

(PS the Bombardier comment wasn't aimed at you so apologies if that wasn't fully clear!).