Class 387

[The Box Photter]

Or the "Ironing board" seats :roll:. Just because the top bit of the backrest looks like one. Or the (quite hysterical now) "no padding" comments. Those seats clearly have more padding than the 3+2 on the 375/377 types, and both have a huge way to go to beat these seats on buses

And the quote under the photo of the Urban 90 seats on the bus is ....

"Inside 781 (X581MBH). These hard urban90 seating are not popular with passengers."

The older seats on the class 377s, even in the 2+3 configuration offer some springiness for the backside and the backs don't tilt you forward like the ones on the 387s.

My view is that the Chapman seating in the Class 319/2s is the most supportive and had the best rake to allow a comfortable journey and they include armrests on all but the double seats next to the end vestibule doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Brighton
Hassocks
Burgess Hill
Haywards Heath
Balcombe
Three Bridges
Gatwick Airport
East Croydon
London Bridge
Blackfriars........

Are you trying to make a point by use of the ellipses? St Pancras LL is accessible and I think Farringdon, West Hampstead, St Albans and Harpenden are also accessible thanks to new overbridges/lifts. I think users might struggle at most others though.

 

[asylumxl]

Here's a photo :

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I believe the chap in this photo is none other than our very own Mojo,

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm sorry I attempted to put my opinion. Obviously 10+ years as a commuter on Thameslink/FCC/Thameslink doesn't qualify me to have one.

Wheelchair accessibility is important, but how will the wheelchairs be secured in the "designated area"

Wheelchairs have brakes. The user engages the brakes and the wheelchair is secure. :roll:

and how will the need to deploy ramps to accommodate their entry and egress impact on the 30 second dwell time in the Core?

30 second dwell time in the core? It takes longer than that to open and close the doors.

It will impact on dwell times slightly, however having a wider space to go into should mean that there is room for the wheelchair user to manoeuvre the chair at a normal speed rather than the slower speed. Also other people will be boarding and alighting at other doors, so it will minimise the impact.

Baby-buggy access isn't important and there's no statutory requirement to provide areas where children can be left in their buggies. Children should be taken out of their buggy and it should be folded and stowed in the designated luggage areas. This will free up more valuable and highly comfortable standing room.

It is probably safer to leave the child in its buggy if the parent is standing and the train is well loaded.

Currently all bicycles being taken through the core during peak hours must be folded. From a personal point of view I don't want to sit on a seat that's had a bicycle tyre rubbing against it for the duration of a journey from Bedford to London thanks.

If previous standards of cleanliness are anything to go by, where the tyre has been rubbing could well be the cleanest part of the seat! Certainly I have been on some very scratty 319s before now.

Either way, get used to it. It's common practice in modern stock. I have to sit in similarly rubbed against seats on 450s.

If the train is going to be held to allow non-ambulant passengers to use it, then there's no need to have ambulant passengers sitting on pieces of fuzzy-felt covered plastic squashed up against each other.

It might well be hard, but it looks like it has been contoured to avoid back trouble. So less padding may be required. Also something you should've realised by now. Commuter TOCs aren't about passenger comfort, they are about moving large numbers of people from a to b quickly and safely, and making a pile of cash for their shareholders. That's about it.

How many stations on the Thameslink route are fully wheelchair-accessible? I think a passenger in a wheelchair might find it difficult to use either of the southbound platforms and the slow line northbound at Flitwick as there's no lift.

As others have said, many are, including the termini, the big interchange stations, and most of the London core.

 

[Stompehh]

I'm sorry I attempted to put my opinion. Obviously 10+ years as a commuter on Thameslink/FCC/Thameslink doesn't qualify me to have one.

You are more than entitled to your opinion! It's just that you are fixated on the layout of the train in this one small part of the train, which is 25% of a single carriage on an 8 or 12 car.

As for accessible stations, you're right that many won't be at the moment. However, the design life of these trains will be 35/40 years and hopefully over that period many more stations will be adapted!

I guess the boarding of wheelchairs will have an impact on dwell times. The fact that the wheelchair space will always stop in the same position (due to being in the middle) should help somewhat. I suppose humps could built at this point LU-style for level boarding.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm sorry I attempted to put my opinion. Obviously 10+ years as a commuter on Thameslink/FCC/Thameslink doesn't qualify me to have one.

An opinion is just that unless you can back up with examples. And your opinion on wheelchairs users at station would struggle in an ill informed joke. Gatwick Airport is a major station so no trouble there. Both Haywards Heath and Three Bridges regularly see wheelchair passengers. Seems you actually know little outside your own commute and its why your opinion is so widely of the mark.

May I ask did you commute at the same times for most of your time on Thameslink?

Wheelchair accessibility is important, but how will the wheelchairs be secured in the "designated area" and how will the need to deploy ramps to accommodate their entry and egress impact on the 30 second dwell time in the Core? Baby-buggy access isn't important and there's no statutory requirement to provide areas where children can be left in their buggies. Children should be taken out of their buggy and it should be folded and stowed in the designated luggage areas. This will free up more valuable and highly comfortable standing room.

If you had been viewing any thread on the 700 and the Core you'd know that there will be no need for any ramps to be in use in the core as all 700s will have level access to the middle two doors. Hence the wide spacing around the middle of the train that being debated.

This isn't fanasty but reality, the ramps are funded, suppliers chosen, is just about installing them which will happen once an all 700 fleet takes over in 2018.

Currently all bicycles being taken through the core during peak hours must be folded. From a personal point of view I don't want to sit on a seat that's had a bicycle tyre rubbing against it for the duration of a journey from Bedford to London thanks.

If the train is going to be held to allow non-ambulant passengers to use it, then there's no need to have ambulant passengers sitting on pieces of fuzzy-felt covered plastic squashed up against each other.

How many stations on the Thameslink route are fully wheelchair-accessible? I think a passenger in a wheelchair might find it difficult to use either of the southbound platforms and the slow line northbound at Flitwick as there's no lift.

So your point attacking those requiring ramps is null and void. And make no mistake about your post comes across as quite offensive.

You also seem to under the misunderstanding that you only plan for today's railway. During the next 40 years, the expected life span of the class 700s, the railway will be far more friendly to those less mobile. Something you seem incapable, or rather, unwilling to think of.

Is really disheartening to see much narrow minded and offensive posts on here attacking others. Those less mobile have just as much right to board trains as selfish commuters. Anyone saying other wise is just cruel and offensive,.

 

[jon0844]

You also seem to under the misunderstanding that you only plan for today's railway. During the next 40 years, the expected life span of the class 700s, the railway will be far more friendly to those less mobile. Something you seem incapable, or rather, unwilling to think of.

Chances are in the next 30-40 years, many people on here (myself included, if I'm still alive at all!) may well be far less mobile than now, so I wonder if opinions will change then?

 

[21C101]

Chances are in the next 30-40 years, many people on here (myself included, if I'm still alive at all!) may well be far less mobile than now, so I wonder if opinions will change then?

my experience of people getting older and less mobile is that they don't want to get on the train at all. A lot of walking to get to the train train and a cramped seat when they get on it.

Compare with driving from door to door. In the last years before my dad died they did the 175 miles to me by taxi. Cost was £175 each way.

Train would not have been any cheaper by the time you added 13 mile taxi from their house to station and cross london taxi.

Indeed, the open return fare on the GW route was actually more expensive.

Plus the taxi was faster. Firm that specialises in long runs, mainly to Heathrow, from the west country.

 

[AM9]

my experience of people getting older and less mobile is that they don't want to get on the train at all. A lot of walking to get to the train train and a cramped seat when they get on it.

Compare with driving from door to door. In the last years before my dad died they did the 175 miles to me by taxi. Cost was £175 each way.

Train would not have been any cheaper by the time you added 13 mile taxi from their house to station and cross london taxi.

Indeed, the open return fare on the GW route was actually more expensive.

Plus the taxi was faster. Firm that specialises in long runs, mainly to Heathrow, from the west country.

Maybe, (based on your experience), old people should be banned from using rail services as they just inconvenience everybody else. Then the seats can be made even more cramped for fit people.
Don't forget older people do mostly vote though!

 

[jon0844]

Plenty of seniors on the trains I use. Some even in the peaks - shock!

By me, buses are favoured because they're free - travel on the train (outside London at least) isn't.

As my mum is disabled, but no longer in a wheelchair, she does actually favour taxis at certain times. This isn't down to cost (the taxi is considerably more expensive) but convenience, or depending how she feels at the time. Even though many more stations are accessible, many aren't and give her problems - especially if she's been on her feet for a lot of the day.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wheelchair accessibility is important, but how will the wheelchairs be secured in the "designated area" and how will the need to deploy ramps to accommodate their entry and egress impact on the 30 second dwell time in the Core?

As already mentioned, wheelchairs are secured by brakes that are applied by the user/carer. As I currently understand, station staff are usually told in advance of a wheelchair user and what carriage s)he is in so that staff (with the ramp) can be at the right place on the platform when the train pulls in

Baby-buggy access isn't important and there's no statutory requirement to provide areas where children can be left in their buggies. Children should be taken out of their buggy and it should be folded and stowed in the designated luggage areas. This will free up more valuable and highly comfortable standing room

How many mums do you know who take their children out of their buggies when travelling on the railway?

And how would a commuter feel if a small child was taking up a valuable seat when s)he could be sat on mum's lap or restrained in a buggy? Most families travel outside the peak times anyway so space shouldn't be an issue.

 

[physics34]

Or the "Ironing board" seats :roll:. Just because the top bit of the backrest looks like one. Or the (quite hysterical now) "no padding" comments. Those seats clearly have more padding than the 3+2 on the 375/377 types, and both have a huge way to go to beat these seats on buses

THose bus seats are awful. The 378 seats are virtually as hard as that.

I fear the way things are going, the next gen of trains after the 700s may have these!

 

[jon0844]

Wheelchair accessibility is important, but how will the wheelchairs be secured in the "designated area" and how will the need to deploy ramps to accommodate their entry and egress impact on the 30 second dwell time in the Core?

As already mentioned, wheelchairs are secured by brakes that are applied by the user/carer. As I currently understand, station staff are usually told in advance of a wheelchair user and what carriage s)he is in so that staff (with the ramp) can be at the right place on the platform when the train pulls in.

On buses, you're meant to be backwards facing and secured against the 'ironing board' (hey, are these 387 seats? ) because a bus can and will stop suddenly.

Trains are hopefully somewhat smoother, rarely having to stop hard. And even then, unless it's a catastrophic crash when all bets are off, even an emergency stop isn't anything like on a bus. Thus, they don't really need to be 'secured' in the same way.

Buggies should be folded at busy times, precisely because there often isn't room for them. But when you're building a new train, you should be thinking of providing room for them. Why not?

Open spaces are good for a multitude of reasons. Far better than having decided to have 3+2 throughout to offer the highest number of seats.

There should be ample seats off peak, and even outside the core it should be possible to get a seat. And in the next 10-20 years if usage increases even further and there's not really any further scope to expand, you can probably expect some of the seats today to be removed for more open areas to allow even more standees.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Excellent, just save on cost and design an "open" train with no seats at all so that everyone stands - or bring your own fold-up seat

 

[asylumxl]

Excellent, just save on cost and design an "open" train with no seats at all so that everyone stands - or bring your own fold-up seat

You can guarantee that the cost to the buyer won't go down though

 

[AM9]

You can guarantee that the cost to the buyer won't go down though

But it might stay the same or go up less than it would have otherwise.

 

[jon0844]

Excellent, just save on cost and design an "open" train with no seats at all so that everyone stands - or bring your own fold-up seat

Unless we build lots of new lines, or people decide to work elsewhere and not commute into London, that's probably what will have to happen!

And when that's the norm on 12 car trains at near 30tph frequencies, and something goes wrong, good luck sorting out that mess! Cancel a few trains and where the hell are people going to fit??

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Unless we build lots of new lines, or people decide to work elsewhere and not commute into London, that's probably what will have to happen!

And when that's the norm on 12 car trains at near 30tph frequencies, and something goes wrong, good luck sorting out that mess! Cancel a few trains and where the hell are people going to fit??

It may be that the ever-increasing cost of rail travel will be too much for some people who will find alternative means of getting to work. But unless businesses decide to invest elsewhere in the UK, people will continue to commute to London

 

[LBSCR Times]

Are you trying to make a point by use of the ellipses? .

Yes, Thameslink also operates south of the Thames!
That was just a selection of accessible stations, before I even start on the Littlehampton / Horsham / Tattenham / East Grinstead and Wimbledon routes, not to mention the South Eastern.
Hence why one part of a coach will be available for those less able.
Commuters are just one part of a wide range of passengers who will be using these routes.

 

[theageofthetra]

Driving on the down by the Abbey Wood portal today I noticed what looked like a brand new section of concrete wall above the sloping roof area being demolished. Any idea why?

 

[southern442]

THose bus seats are awful. The 378 seats are virtually as hard as that.

I fear the way things are going, the next gen of trains after the 700s may have these!

I......... actually don't mind those bus seats *Braces himself*

*angry mob of urban90 seat haters tramples over me*

 

[Bald Rick]

... and how will the need to deploy ramps to accommodate their entry and egress impact on the 30 second dwell time in the Core?

It's 60 second dwell times in the core, except London Bridge which will be 90sec.

And all the modelling, including live trials with mock ups, shows it can be done easily with the numbers predicted.

 

[physics34]

I......... actually don't mind those bus seats *Braces himself*

*angry mob of urban90 seat haters tramples over me*

ha ha. ive moaned enough about train seats i dont think ive got the energy to moan about bus seats too

 

[The Box Photter]

Yes, Thameslink also operates south of the Thames!
That was just a selection of accessible stations, before I even start on the Littlehampton / Horsham / Tattenham / East Grinstead and Wimbledon routes, not to mention the South Eastern.
Hence why one part of a coach will be available for those less able.
Commuters are just one part of a wide range of passengers who will be using these routes.

Fair point. I'd still suggest that Thameslink wouldn't be happening as a concept were it not for the needs of thousands of daily commuters, both from north and south of London.

It looks like I'll still get a seat, but I'm going to crochet myself a cushion.

 

[21C101]

Fair point. I'd still suggest that Thameslink wouldn't be happening as a concept were it not for the needs of thousands of daily commuters, both from north and south of London.

It looks like I'll still get a seat, but I'm going to crochet myself a cushion.

As I understand it, Thameslink only happened for two reasons

1) Joining the two services together meant less trains needed and less terminus platforms needed in London (hence Holborn Viaduct closed and later St Pancras could be reduced to 4 platforms when CTRL came along and Moorgate (Widened lines) closed.

2) Bedpan trains could be maintained at Selhurst so Cricklewood Traincare Maintenance Depot (which apparently had a notorious reputation for militancy in the '80s) could be closed and demolished (Bedford Cauldwell depot was only opened much later when the 8 month blockade to build St Pancras Low Level meant trains couldn't get to Selhurst)

Basically, operational convenience! I've heard that it was (2) that swung it meaning that when the GLC offered some cash towards the infrastructure costs of reopening Blackfriars - Farringdon BR were keen to take them up on it.

 

[samj]

Now 117 is in use surely there is room for more diagrams to be introduced or are TL waiting for a few more yet?

 

[Class377/5]

Now 117 is in use surely there is room for more diagrams to be introduced or are TL waiting for a few more yet?

More diagrams from next week.

 

[talldave]

It's 60 second dwell times in the core, except London Bridge which will be 90sec.

And all the modelling, including live trials with mock ups, shows it can be done easily with the numbers predicted.

Is that the same modelling used to plan the current fiasco at London Bridge??

 

[samj]

387111/387117 1238 Brighton-Bedford
387110/387114 1308 Brighton-Bedford
387109/387105 just gone past Wivelsfield on 1321 ECS from Three Bridges-Lovers Walk. Can anyone confirm the reason behind this movement?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that the same modelling used to plan the current fiasco at London Bridge??

No.

But to be clear, now the CIS screens had been sorted on the Shard concourse, from a ped flow point of view, London Bridge is performing almost exactly as the model predicted.

Anyway back on topic. I'm writing this on 117. Seats comfy....

 

[Class377/5]

No.

But to be clear, now the CIS screens had been sorted on the Shard concourse, from a ped flow point of view, London Bridge is performing almost exactly as the model predicted.

Anyway back on topic. I'm writing this on 117. Seats comfy....

Funny, I'm reading this sat on 387117.