• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 387

Status
Not open for further replies.

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
7,770
Location
Croydon
That is my view also I am afraid regarding the stealthy removal of First class. I suppose its inevitable - after all how many passengers (voters) want First class and how many people have no seat on the train at all.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,439
Location
Bolton
The First Class Anytime Single from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport 'Any Permitted' is £29.20. Are they really saying that, for that, you get no refreshments and the same seat as Standard, on trains that, outwith times of disruption, have plenty of free seats almost all day?

The 379s were ordered as Airport Express trains and they have wonderfully comfy First Class - and on the trains with a trolley a complimentary hot drink.
 
Last edited:

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,928
The First Class Anytime Single from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport 'Any Permitted' is £29.20. Are they really saying that, for that, you get no refreshments and the same seat as Standard, on trains that, outwith times of disruption, have plenty of free seats almost all day?

The 379s were ordered as Airport Express trains and they have wonderfully comfy First Class - and on the trains with a trolley a complimentary hot drink.

Yep it really will be dumbed down, but the gatwick expresses from vic during the day really are lightly loaded. Suppose it's not even worth while having a trolley service anyway, which is a big shame.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
387201 has come into service on Thameslink this morning on the south end of the following services;

1W02 05.30 Brighton to Bedford
2W21 08.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W30 10.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W37 13.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W96 16.35 Brighton to Bedford
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,330
Location
St Albans
Just seen 201 at City Thameslink. Very smart. First Class has been set-out at the north end.

So it looks like Govia will continue to confuse passengers with liveries, train types and service descriptions until it suits them to penalise passengers for travelling on the wrong train for their ticket.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,967
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
So it looks like Govia will continue to confuse passengers with liveries, train types and service descriptions until it suits them to penalise passengers for travelling on the wrong train for their ticket.

Exactly. My train (0831 Redhill to Victoria) was the usual 377/6 this morning, with so-called first class half-full of uncomprehending or uncaring Gatwick arriving passengers who were then joined by sheeple at intermediate stations who just plonked themselves down without even looking round. I would put a lot of money on almost all of them not having first class tickets. The conductor was nowhere to be seen for the entire journey. Why do they not use the single first class section on these units to base themselves in, as some do, so as to provide at least a token deterrent?

On the subject of first class and confusion around its application, I was almost amused last night when the conductor of my GWR Redhill to Betchworth leg threw a group of schoolboys out of the section marked as first class, even though first class was abolished on these stopping trains from last October (despite 166s being sent away for re-painting, they still manage to turn up on almost all the stopping trains rather than 165s)! When he returned to the section a few minutes later I pointed out the abolition and he was unaware that it had happened! To be fair, the only reference to it that I have seen anywhere has been the timetable header '1' code having been removed from the relevant columns (except two evening workings in one direction only where it has been left in place in error!). No wonder staff, let alone passengers, don't know of the change.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,928
Exactly. My train (0831 Redhill to Victoria) was the usual 377/6 this morning, with so-called first class half-full of uncomprehending or uncaring Gatwick arriving passengers who were then joined by sheeple at intermediate stations who just plonked themselves down without even looking round. I would put a lot of money on almost all of them not having first class tickets. The conductor was nowhere to be seen for the entire journey. Why do they not use the single first class section on these units to base themselves in, as some do, so as to provide at least a token deterrent?

On the subject of first class and confusion around its application, I was almost amused last night when the conductor of my GWR Redhill to Betchworth leg threw a group of schoolboys out of the section marked as first class, even though first class was abolished on these stopping trains from last October (despite 166s being sent away for re-painting, they still manage to turn up on almost all the stopping trains rather than 165s)! When he returned to the section a few minutes later I pointed out the abolition and he was unaware that it had happened! To be fair, the only reference to it that I have seen anywhere has been the timetable header '1' code having been removed from the relevant columns (except two evening workings in one direction only where it has been left in place in error!). No wonder staff, let alone passengers, don't know of the change.

it doesnt help that the accomodation is not up to scatch when it comes to what first class should be, and looks like the rest of the train.

Sums it up really.

If it was decent first class, people may look around thinking its too posh for standard!!
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,313
It's almos like they don't want you to travel in First Class... :D
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,967
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
it doesnt help that the accomodation is not up to scatch when it comes to what first class should be, and looks like the rest of the train.

Sums it up really.

If it was decent first class, people may look around thinking its too posh for standard!!

Precisely - although this particular unit did have its full compliment of first class anti-macassars. However, the accommodation is very poor and the 377/6s and 377/7s should simply have been equipped with a more suitable first class section with large and very clear electronic signs indicating whether it is being used as standard or first according to metro or outer-suburban use. Not expensive to do and a basic piece of information provision that should have been a glaringly obvious requirement for units used in both regimes.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,928
Precisely - although this particular unit did have its full compliment of first class anti-macassars. However, the accommodation is very poor and the 377/6s and 377/7s should simply have been equipped with a more suitable first class section with large and very clear electronic signs indicating whether it is being used as standard or first according to metro or outer-suburban use. Not expensive to do and a basic piece of information provision that should have been a glaringly obvious requirement for units used in both regimes.

unfortunately the decision-makers dont seem to have anyone who has an eye for detail....... unless they are just so fixated on saving money.

Still find it funny how plug sockets are more important than comfort now though.
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,594
I'd say i'd be rather cheesed off if I commuted on a 442 to Vic (in 1st) and it gets changed to a 387 with their "1st"...:roll:
 

andrewkeith5

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
681
Location
West Sussex
I'd say i'd be rather cheesed off if I commuted on a 442 to Vic (in 1st) and it gets changed to a 387 with their "1st"...:roll:


I'm actually not that bothered about the trains being the same- on the Brighton Mainline at least. At the moment Brighton area commuters flood the Gatwick express trains, presumably because they are considered more comfortably, making it almost impossible to travel comfortably from Gatwick into Victoria or vice versa in the peaks.

Maybe if the trains are more similar this will even out a bit. I can hope!

I will miss the inter city type first class on 442s, but not for long. For a half hour journey if I'm travelling in first it'll be because I want a seat, some space and some peace and quiet.
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,887
Location
Surrey
387201 has come into service on Thameslink this morning on the south end of the following services;

1W02 05.30 Brighton to Bedford
2W21 08.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W30 10.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W37 13.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W96 16.35 Brighton to Bedford

Was shopping in Redhill so decided to jump on 201 down to Gatwick on 2W21. As reported interior is similar to 387/1 but looks much better with Red & Grey seat covers.

The first class section seemed very temporary, tacked on in the normal Thameslink position. I wonder if this is actually temporary and the final position will be changed before service on Gatwick Express.
 

Attachments

  • WP_20160202_10_26_25_Pro_LI (1024x576).jpg
    WP_20160202_10_26_25_Pro_LI (1024x576).jpg
    405.9 KB · Views: 103
  • WP_20160202_10_34_52_Pro_LI (1024x576).jpg
    WP_20160202_10_34_52_Pro_LI (1024x576).jpg
    348.6 KB · Views: 109

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,967
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
I'm actually not that bothered about the trains being the same- on the Brighton Mainline at least. At the moment Brighton area commuters flood the Gatwick express trains, presumably because they are considered more comfortably, making it almost impossible to travel comfortably from Gatwick into Victoria or vice versa in the peaks.

Maybe if the trains are more similar this will even out a bit. I can hope!

I will miss the inter city type first class on 442s, but not for long. For a half hour journey if I'm travelling in first it'll be because I want a seat, some space and some peace and quiet.

Sorry, I'm confused - are you concerned about the trains being the same or not? You seem to say both but perhaps I have missed something?
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,887
Location
Surrey
I'm actually not that bothered about the trains being the same- on the Brighton Mainline at least. At the moment Brighton area commuters flood the Gatwick express trains, presumably because they are considered more comfortably, making it almost impossible to travel comfortably from Gatwick into Victoria or vice versa in the peaks.

Maybe if the trains are more similar this will even out a bit. I can hope!

I will miss the inter city type first class on 442s, but not for long. For a half hour journey if I'm travelling in first it'll be because I want a seat, some space and some peace and quiet.

I think with the Gatwick Express being a service every half hour from Brighton it is inevitable that during the peaks the Gatwick Expresses will be crowded, but that is a small price to pay for proper utilisation of limited resources along the BML and not having a half-empty train in the middle of congested peak services.

However whilst I haven't experienced the morning rush, in the evening I have occasionally caught the extended GatEx as far as Gatwick and it always seems to have plenty of spare seats.
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,594
I think with the Gatwick Express being a service every half hour from Brighton it is inevitable that during the peaks the Gatwick Expresses will be crowded, but that is a small price to pay for proper utilisation of limited resources along the BML and not having a half-empty train in the middle of congested peak services.

However whilst I haven't experienced the morning rush, in the evening I have occasionally caught the extended GatEx as far as Gatwick and it always seems to have plenty of spare seats.

Yeah there mostly is on them. Some services are sparse to Gatwick. It honestly depends on the day too... some days Gatwick is heaving in the morning, other times its fairly quiet.
 

trainmania100

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2015
Messages
2,778
Location
Newhaven
Does anyone know if the 387201 + 387/1 combo will be running at the weekend between brighton and gatwick?
Fancy a ride on it but work mon to fri
thanks
 
Joined
24 Mar 2009
Messages
592
387201 formed the rear four coaches of tonight's 17:52 Blackfriars to Bedford. That's train 1W96, the 16:35 Brighton to Bedford.

Some passengers were a little taken aback to see a red train with red seats!

It still smells new inside.
 

Bishopstone

Established Member
Joined
24 Jun 2010
Messages
1,585
Location
Seaford
As I've stated before, my hunch is that GTR will abolish First Class this year: perhaps at the next timetable change.

However... assuming I'm wrong, for now, it will be mildly interesting to see where and how much First Class they set-out on the GatEx 387/2s. I think they need more than the 10 seats behind one cab as deployed on Thameslink 377s and 387s, but less than the half-coach divided by an internal door in one driving car, which was presumably intended for such a purpose.

So my guess is they'll adopt the Southern 377 model, and First Class will be the 20 seats (total) directly behind both cabs.
 

RichJF

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2012
Messages
1,147
Location
South London or Sussex
So it looks like Govia will continue to confuse passengers with liveries, train types and service descriptions until it suits them to penalise passengers for travelling on the wrong train for their ticket.

I suppose the average passenger will just see a red train & think "Ooh a new train!"
Whereas us rail enthusiasts get annoyed that the stock is introduced on a route it isn't really intended to serve in the long run.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,313
Whereas us rail enthusiasts get annoyed that the stock is introduced on a route it isn't really intended to serve in the long run.

I don't see how it's annoying, aside from introducing another new livery to Thameslink. In fact, I'm quite impressed with the foresight to fit the 387/2 subclass with pantographs from the outset.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,527
Location
UK
I suppose the average passenger will just see a red train & think "Ooh a new train!"
Whereas us rail enthusiasts get annoyed that the stock is introduced on a route it isn't really intended to serve in the long run.

I think many ordinary people have no idea how new a train is. If it's bright and shiny, it looks new. If the 387 had been out for days without a clean, people would likely consider it old. Likewise when the interior gets dirty/worn but the train is only a few years old.

I think passengers will notice the more 'ordinary' things, like how comfortable the seats are, or how much leg room, or being able to move around freely with luggage, a pram etc.

Likewise, anyone who pays for a first class ticket is bound to be looking at the quality of first class. Someone who went first class to get a seat may be more forgiving than someone who upgraded to 'treat themselves' and discovered the only extra luxury is an antimacassar saying first class, and that it's full of people who just upgrade themselves for free because it's a DOO service... (I'm talking more generally here, not just about these trains).

Look at how impressed people were/are with the Eurostart refurbishments.. or an HST.. or even a 1980s Mk3 train. The seats on the refurbed AGA 317s are very impressive indeed. I'd even say that first class is almost worth paying for.
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,594
One day SN/GX will actually get the trains its ordered for its own use ;)
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,967
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
Southern's web site news item on the 387s entering Gatwick service on the 29th claims that the new trains have more first class seats. Is this true? I thought each 387/2 had first at one end only, giving 10 seats per unit (assuming they follow the 387/1 pattern), whereas the 442s have 24 in the centre car, I believe. Even if 387/2s have first at both ends, that's still only 20 seats. An eight car formation of 378/2s (presumably the norm for the new stock) to Gatwick will therefore have 20 first class seats against 48 for a ten car 442 rake.
 
Last edited:

47802

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
3,454
Southern's web site news item on the 387s entering Gatwick service on the 29th claims that the new trains have more first class seats. Is this true? I thought each 387/2 had first at one end only, giving 10 seats per unit (assuming they follow the 381/1 pattern), whereas the 442s have 24 in the centre car, I believe. Even if 387/2s have first at both ends, that's still only 20 seats.

I don't know how may so called 1st the 387's are supposed to have but remember a 12 car 387 will have 3x whatever as opposed to 2 x whatever on a 442, or an 8 car might have 2 x whatever over a single 442.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,967
Location
Gomshall, Surrey

I don't know how may so called 1st the 387's are supposed to have but remember a 12 car 387 will have 3x whatever as opposed to 2 x whatever on a 442, or an 8 car might have 2 x whatever over a single 442.

Yes, but I am assuming the Gatwick Express formations will be 2x387/2 (8 coaches) rather than 3x387/2 (12 coaches), and the current formation is usually 2x442 (10 coaches). Am I wrong to assume the new normal formation will be 8 coaches?
 

Townsend Hook

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2011
Messages
932
Location
GB
I don't see how it's annoying, aside from introducing another new livery to Thameslink. In fact, I'm quite impressed with the foresight to fit the 387/2 subclass with pantographs from the outset.

I would say that it was just something else to pay to maintain, but I seem to have been proved wrong by the fact they can just slot in to replace the 387/1s on Thameslink until the 700s are ready.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top