Class 387

[Class377/5]

I do find it funny that this thread has had posts complaining about 387s replacing 442, now you have 387/2 on other services people are complaining that they aren't on the right service. Proof this forum can never agree on anything.

Yes, but I am assuming the Gatwick Express formations will be 2x387/2 (8 coaches) rather than 3x387/2 (12 coaches), and the current formation is usually 2x442 (10 coaches). Am I wrong to assume the new normal formation will be 8 coaches?

387/2 are to be used in 4, 8 and 12 coaches according to an interview a while back. 8 cars for Brighton services with 4 on GatEx shuttles (5 car 442 are reported dead on most forum posts between the peak) with 12 cars in the Peak.

One day SN/GX will actually get the trains its ordered for its own use

Expect it's being used by the company that ordered them. Let's not forget the 387/2 were ordered by GTR not Southern (which is a brand, the company was The New Southern Railway Company which no longer exists so can never expect to get trains again).

 

[Deepgreen]

387/2 are to be used in 4, 8 and 12 coaches according to an interview a while back. 8 cars for Brighton services with 4 on GatEx shuttles (5 car 442 are reported dead on most forum posts between the peak) with 12 cars in the Peak.



.

In that case, it almost certainly looks to be a false claim that there will be more first class seats than now - off-peak; 10 seats in a 4 coach 387/2 against 24 in a 5 coach 442. Peaks (to Brighton) become a little more complicated, but the maximum of 30 for a 387/2x3 formation compares with 48 for a 442x2 formation.

 

[swt_passenger]

As I've stated before, my hunch is that GTR will abolish First Class this year: perhaps at the next timetable change.

I thought people had been suggesting that since the first Electrostars ever arrived with identical seats everywhere, and it hasn't ever happened.

 

[Class377/5]

In that case, it almost certainly looks to be a false claim that there will be more first class seats than now - off-peak; 10 seats in a 4 coach 387/2 against 24 in a 5 coach 442. Peaks (to Brighton) become a little more complicated, but the maximum of 30 for a 387/2x3 formation compares with 48 for a 442x2 formation.

Er as we don't yet know for sure how they are going to deal with first class, accusing them of lying is a bit silly. Especially as Southern tends to have first class at both ends in four car Electrostar's throwing your numbers out completely.

But I'd like to see the quote (full please) that your basing your post on, as it may not refer to just GatEx (which from your post is impossible to see).

 

[Deepgreen]

Er as we don't yet know for sure how they are going to deal with first class, accusing them of lying is a bit silly. Especially as Southern tends to have first class at both ends in four car Electrostar's throwing your numbers out completely.

But I'd like to see the quote (full please) that your basing your post on, as it may not refer to just GatEx (which from your post is impossible to see).

Didn't actually say 'lying' - just pointing out the possible error. The unit so far in service (with TL) currently is laid out with one first class section of 10 seats. I suppose there is the option of fitting anti-macassars to the other driving car's opposite numbers and thus magically creating more first class (!), but even that, as I said earlier, will only give 20 seats, against a 442's 24. Happy to wait and see, but the numbers really don't look anything to boast about. The item in question is in Southern's web site news section.

 

[Fincra5]

I do find it funny that this thread has had posts complaining about 387s replacing 442, now you have 387/2 on other services people are complaining that they aren't on the right service. Proof this forum can never agree on anything.



387/2 are to be used in 4, 8 and 12 coaches according to an interview a while back. 8 cars for Brighton services with 4 on GatEx shuttles (5 car 442 are reported dead on most forum posts between the peak) with 12 cars in the Peak.



Expect it's being used by the company that ordered them. Let's not forget the 387/2 were ordered by GTR not Southern (which is a brand, the company was The New Southern Railway Company which no longer exists so can never expect to get trains again).

Very much aware of that my friend. However my jest point was that they were designed for Gatwick Express, I know they are being used to aid TLK why the /1s have their software updates, but TLK seem to get everything lol.

 

[Class377/5]

Didn't actually say 'lying' - just pointing out the possible error. The unit so far in service (with TL) currently is laid out with one first class section of 10 seats. I suppose there is the option of fitting anti-macassars to the other driving car's opposite numbers and thus magically creating more first class (!), but even that, as I said earlier, will only give 20 seats, against a 442's 24. Happy to wait and see, but the numbers really don't look anything to boast about. The item in question is in Southern's web site news section.

You use the term false claim, which to me means decieving/lying/untrue.

And you also fail to remember that 24x 2 is 48 for a 10 car 442 where as on a 387/2 its 20x 3 means 60 first class seats for a 12 car formation. That's an increase in my book.

Note that Thameslink units have generally had less first class than Southern units electrostars too.

Very much aware of that my friend. However my jest point was that they were designed for Gatwick Express, I know they are being used to aid TLK why the /1s have their software updates, but TLK seem to get everything lol.

Everything? I'd counter that but you know that's not quite the far reaching statement you made

 

[AM9]

Very much aware of that my friend. However my jest point was that they were designed for Gatwick Express, I know they are being used to aid TLK why the /1s have their software updates, but TLK seem to get everything lol.

Thameslink must in the eyes of the lessee have the greater need. They don't actually belong to anybody other than the RoSCo, so they should be used to best effect.

 

[The Box Photter]

Given the fact that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Standard and First Class seats in a 387/1 or 387/2, GTR could easily declare the whole train to be composed of First Class (so long as they have enough antimacassars to go round).

Perhaps the seats marked with a "P" really mean "Primo".

 

[Bishopstone]

From the news feature on the Southern website:

“From this summer, we’ll be introducing a raft of further exciting improvements to the overall Gatwick express journey.”

Any know what these improvements entail?

 

[trainmania100]

387201 4car currently stabled Bedford cs
Ran with 117 this morning, before being replaced by another unit (111 I think)

 

[Kite159]

From the news feature on the Southern website:

“From this summer, we’ll be introducing a raft of further exciting improvements to the overall Gatwick express journey.”

Any know what these improvements entail?

Free wifi and power sockets

 

[Julian G]

387201 4car currently stabled Bedford cs
Ran with 117 this morning, before being replaced by another unit (111 I think)

It went out again coupling to an 8 car to form a 12 car train. Stables back at Bedford tonight with another 4 car unit.

 

[Bishopstone]

Free wifi and power sockets

Yes, but those arrive with the 387/2s later this month. The news article implies further changes to the service proposition over the summer.

Probably in danger of going off topic, though.

 

[hwl]

Yes, but those arrive with the 387/2s later this month. The news article implies further changes to the service proposition over the summer.

Probably in danger of going off topic, though.

All 387/2s delivered and final 442s withdrawn from GatEx?

Doors wider than a suitcase?

 

[Deepgreen]

You use the term false claim, which to me means decieving/lying/untrue.

And you also fail to remember that 24x 2 is 48 for a 10 car 442 where as on a 387/2 its 20x 3 means 60 first class seats for a 12 car formation. That's an increase in my book.

Note that Thameslink units have generally had less first class than Southern units electrostars too.

"False" to me does include "untrue" (as in "true or false"), but that doesn't mean a leap to "lying". Most of Southern's mass of mis-information in general falls under the heading of misleading or untrue, rather than deception.
I may have been mis-informed, but I was under the impression that Gatwick trains (i.e. not to Brighton) will be a maximum of eight coaches (387/2), against the current ten (442). If I have been mis-informed, so be it. I agree with the last point and I have latterly assumed two sections of first, giving 40 seats for an eight coach 387/2 rake, against 48 for a ten coach 442.

 

[Starmill]

Well, 387 201 was looking garish this morning sandwiched in the middle of the 0730 from Bedford.

It's very very poorly defined where First Class begins and ends.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, 387 201 was looking garish this morning sandwiched in the middle of the 0730 from Bedford.

It's very very poorly defined where First Class begins and ends.

It just gets worse and worse! Rubbishy seats, pathetic anti-macassars that are so easily removed (either accidentally or deliberately) feeble signage and a garish, clashing colour scheme.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, 387 201 was looking garish this morning sandwiched in the middle of the 0730 from Bedford.

It's very very poorly defined where First Class begins and ends.

There is a perfectly good partition between what is intended as first class and the rest of the train - indeed it is at the same position as in the 379 fleet. However, for operation on Thameslink it would appear that less first class is required so effectively part of the area is declassified. Is this a problem?

It will be interesting to see how the area is split when the units are used for Gatwick Express services and the 387/1s start running outer area services from Paddington.

Of course, on the 377/7s it is the inner part of the carriage that is used as first class creating some inconsistency.

 

[Starmill]

I would call it a problem, because it is very unclear where First Class begins and ends. As I just said.

The class 379 fleet which you allude to has no such difficulty, or do you disagree?

 

[47802]

It just gets worse and worse! Rubbishy seats, pathetic anti-macassars that are so easily removed (either accidentally or deliberately) feeble signage and a garish, clashing colour scheme.

Well the colour scheme is very subjective, I think it looks good much better than Southern washed out green

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Gatwick Express stock 387003, viewed from inside the door of it's forerunner, a Class 442, at Brighton earlier today

 

[TH172341]

Well firstly, looking at that First Class, I'd just scrap it. No difference to Standard and hardly distinguished.

However I quite like the look of the standard interior - smart and modern. I don't mind the high back seats really for journeys up to 50-60 minutes. Really people have been demanding more seats for rail journeys and the only way to do that is to have thinner seats that won't compromise legroom, so more can be installed. So we can have thicker padded seats, with fewer in a carriage, or thinner, and more. Only thing that could be done is fitting a pillow headrest at the top of these new seats to make it a bit softer on the neck/head.

The 387s are nice units, that are proving reliable and I quite like how Bombardier have incorporated reading lights into the interior.

My only criticism of the seats is more of a practical issue, and that is the heavy use of white on the back of them. They're easily going to show up scuff marks over the years. Personally prefer darker tones, such as the 172 and 379 light grey seatbacks.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well the colour scheme is very subjective, I think it looks good much better than Southern washed out green

It is subjective, I agree, but I actually meant the interior, with the clash of red and sky blue. I also like the Southern livery (I assume you were referring to the exterior?) - one of the few things Southern ever got close to right in my opinion!

 

[bb21]

387201 booked on the following today (departure times at St Pancras):

Northbound
2W48 (1648)
2W64 (2108)

Southbound
2W39 (1354)
2W59 (1854)
2W79 (2354)

 

[Class377/5]

"False" to me does include "untrue" (as in "true or false"), but that doesn't mean a leap to "lying". Most of Southern's mass of mis-information in general falls under the heading of misleading or untrue, rather than deception.
I may have been mis-informed, but I was under the impression that Gatwick trains (i.e. not to Brighton) will be a maximum of eight coaches (387/2), against the current ten (442). If I have been mis-informed, so be it. I agree with the last point and I have latterly assumed two sections of first, giving 40 seats for an eight coach 387/2 rake, against 48 for a ten coach 442.

Sorry but you posted about false claims and to me that meant you were challenging the statement put out (that I'm still a link to by the way). Where were you informed from? Officl source or rumours?

Another point make its doors out much how much class is provided when trains aren't even overloaded of peak?

Gatwick Express stock 387003, viewed from inside the door of it's forerunner, a Class 442, at Brighton earlier today

Slight pedantic point but that's 387203, no such as a 387/0.

Well, 387 201 was looking garish this morning sandwiched in the middle of the 0730 from Bedford.

It's very very poorly defined where First Class begins and ends.

I'd have thought something on the seat would be a rather large hint personally.

Not quite sure why people are getting so fussed about a temporary solution.

 

[Deepgreen]

Sorry but you posted about false claims and to me that meant you were challenging the statement put out (that I'm still a link to by the way). Where were you informed from? Officl source or rumours?

Another point make its doors out much how much class is provided when trains aren't even overloaded of peak?

Yes, I was challenging the statement (but not making accusations of lying, which implies intentional dishonesty). I believed the Southern web site's item to include a possible erroneous claim, based on information I had gleaned from various sources, mostly this forum, and, to a lesser extent, my own knowledge/experience.

Sorry - I can't decipher your second point.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, I was challenging the statement (but not making accusations of lying, which implies intentional dishonesty). I believed the Southern web site's item to include a possible erroneous claim, based on information I had gleaned from various sources, mostly this forum, and, to a lesser extent, my own knowledge/experience.

Sorry - I can't decipher your second point.

Sorry second point was what's the point of providing such levels of first class when its not going to be used as much outside the peaks?

 

[Deepgreen]

Sorry second point was what's the point of providing such levels of first class when its not going to be used as much outside the peaks?

Ah. I don't necessarily disagree, but that wasn't what the item from Southern said when it talked of more first class seats. Anyhoo, as you have suggested, it may be prudent to see what changes (if any) GX make to the TL level of provision, and what formations are actually diagrammed to Gatwick Airport once the 387/2s are in place.

 

[Starmill]

I'd have thought something on the seat would be a rather large hint personally.

Not quite sure why people are getting so fussed about a temporary solution.

What about the seats that are in the same area behind the doors that say "1st" that don't have an anti-macassar? What about standing in the vestibule?