• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 387

Status
Not open for further replies.

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,464
Personally as Minstral25 has pointed out I do not see any 377's going spare, if anything they will be used to relieve the capacity on existing services to form 10 - 12 car trains where needed...

Other than the 377s which are/may be required to transfer to Great Northern (19) and Southeastern (20?).

What is happening with 365001-3650016 when the class 700's star coming on stream?

Why the first 16 units specifically? 21 365s will transfer to GWR when the aforementioned 377/5s arrive.

What I can possibly see happening is that some of the class 365's i.e. 365001 - 3650016 passing back to South Eastern temporarily and some of the 4 car class 375's moving on loan to C2C possibly?

That's not happening, certainly not in the timescale that c2c require.

At some point though I would expect that C2C in the long term receiving new stock, which probably would be something like the Bombardier Aventra.

That will happen, it's a franchise requirement - 17 new-build units are expected by 2019.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bishopstone

Established Member
Joined
24 Jun 2010
Messages
1,478
Location
Seaford
From a passenger point of view. There are virtually no diagrams that a 442 could take over from a 377. The 442's dwell time is far to long and they are not good when filled to capacity as most 377's are at some point in there diagram. I have stood on a 442 when at full capacity squashed right down the aisle and it is a very unpleasant experience.

Exactly. The only Southern services vaguely suited to 442s are the very ones from which they are about to be relieved, namely the limited stop Brighton and Gatwick Expresses.

I suppose one short term solution would be to retain a couple of 442 diagrams on the Expresses, and divert some 387/2s to c2c from new build?

Anyone thinking 442s can slot into 377 diagrams/timings without repercussions should take a moment to study the performance of the 18.23 London Bridge - Eastbourne (M-F 2x442), on which I have opined frequently on another thread.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Does that include the units at Wolverton?

Yes.

If I'm reading things correctly, Porterbrook are not involved in the C2C deal, which somewhat limits the potential options available or was the comment regarding only their 387s?

The first 700s are due into service in April (?), allowing a few 387/1s to move to GWR, otherwise I can see why the 387/1s would have been the obvious solution. Unless this is changed, given delays to the GW electrification, those first few 700s could allow some 319s or 377s to go to C2C, with later 700 deliveries displacing the 387s required for GW's Hayes & Harlington services.

Either way, the only other manner I can see any AC stock being made available in the next few months is some convoluted deal/moves involving the 442s - the only other stock becoming available in the next few months, resulting from the 387/2s coming into service - April again? Are there suitable diagrams which the 442s could take over from 377s, of any variety on Southern services, allowing a shuffle around of 377 diagrams with some 377/2s being made available for C2C? From what I can recall, not all the 377/2s are required for dual voltage diagrams.

There are no spare 377/2 at Southern. They have 6 units with four required for daily service.

The 319s aren't released until the 700/0 arrive in Spring. The 700/1 replace the 377/387.

Only 19 of the 23 Class 377/5s will be passed on to Great Northern; that move is not planned to take place until next year. And six 442s will definitely be retained for peak hour services, at least in the interim.

Those figures may be incorrect. Well the 442s numbers are correct.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Other than the 377s which are/may be required to transfer to Great Northern (19) and Southeastern (20?).



Why the first 16 units specifically? 21 365s will transfer to GWR when the aforementioned 377/5s arrive.



That's not happening, certainly not in the timescale that c2c require.



That will happen, it's a franchise requirement - 17 new-build units are expected by 2019.

The first 16 have both AC and DC capabilities having previously worked within the South Eastern area, before being moved north to work on GN routes.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,464
The first 16 have had both AC and DC capabilities having previously worked within the South Eastern area, before being moved north to work on GN routes.

All 40 (41) units were designed to an identical specification, but none have operated on DC traction since 2004. But they are to remain on AC-only routes for the foreseeable future.
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,375
Yes.



There are no spare 377/2 at Southern. They have 6 units with four required for daily service.

The 319s aren't released until the 700/0 arrive in Spring. The 700/1 replace the 377/387.



Those figures may be incorrect. Well the 442s numbers are correct.

Class 700/0 are the 8 car right?

I thought it was the 700/1 that was coming in first this spring to start displacing the 387s to GWR?

Then the 700/0 come in later in the year to displace more 319s from routes like Sevenoaks, Wimbledon loop etc?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
Class 700/0 are the 8 car right?

I thought it was the 700/1 that was coming in first this spring to start displacing the 387s to GWR?

Then the 700/0 come in later in the year to displace more 319s from routes like Sevenoaks, Wimbledon loop etc?

Batches of 12 & 8 car

11x 12car in Batch 1 then 6x 8 car in Batch 2

11x 12 car in Batch 1 will more than replace the 387s
 

grid56126

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2011
Messages
295
Hasn't the shoegear been removed to save maintenance.

It has and the ex Connex batch needed a lot of mods to get them working on AC without problems. It's doubtless not impossible to go back on 750, but they have never been "proper" dual voltage units.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
It has and the ex Connex batch needed a lot of mods to get them working on AC without problems. It's doubtless not impossible to go back on 750, but they have never been "proper" dual voltage units.

I said on the Thameslink Class 700 thread, I think the only possibility of a Class 365 returning to 750V DC is if the North Downs line is electrified (which would be at 25kV AC) AND from Redhill to Gatwick they operate on 750V DC AND they actually operate those services.

IF (big IF, of course) Reading to Redhill is electrified at 25kV AC, there's a high probability there would be conversion work on the Brighton Main Line, perhaps a London to Gatwick Airport stage, around the same time, so even 750V DC operation on a Reading to Gatwick service wouldn't be guaranteed.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,942
I said on the Thameslink Class 700 thread, I think the only possibility of a Class 365 returning to 750V DC is if the North Downs line is electrified (which would be at 25kV AC) AND from Redhill to Gatwick they operate on 750V DC AND they actually operate those services.

IF (big IF, of course) Reading to Redhill is electrified at 25kV AC, there's a high probability there would be conversion work on the Brighton Main Line, perhaps a London to Gatwick Airport stage, around the same time, so even 750V DC operation on a Reading to Gatwick service wouldn't be guaranteed.

TBH I don't think the DfT or NR should be looking at anymore 750 DC to 25KV conversions it was ill judged and currently has, in my view, no merit and should have no priority over wiring other non-electrified lines. NR should tell the DfT where to go on this issue.

If anything the North Downs should be electrified with the 3rd Rail and let the Class 365s run on it through out.

Personally I cannot see the 3rd Rail being converted in my lifetime nevermind a start being made on conversion.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
TBH I don't think the DfT or NR should be looking at anymore 750 DC to 25KV conversions it was ill judged and currently has, in my view, no merit and should have no priority over wiring other non-electrified lines. NR should tell the DfT where to go on this issue.

If anything the North Downs should be electrified with the 3rd Rail and let the Class 365s run on it through out.

Personally I cannot see the 3rd Rail being converted in my lifetime nevermind a start being made on conversion.

I'm not so sure. I think that in many cases, the business case for converting lines from third rail to OLE would be at the very least equal to, if not better than the case for wiring a lot of lines. Out of interest, why do you think that such conversions have no merit? There would certainly be a lot of benefits to it! Additionally, I haven't seen any DfT calls for conversion, but have only seen them from people within NR, such as P.P.

The likelihood of any major electrification being 3rd rail nowadays is absolutely tiny. Not only is it more dangerous, but it is also arguably the worst form of electrification that is used in the UK. Lines like Marshlink, Uckfield, and the North Downs will almost certainly be electrified using 25kV OLE, when they are electrified.

As for your last sentence, it depends how old you are. I certainly would hope that a large part of it is done within my lifetime.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,942
I'm not so sure. I think that in many cases, the business case for converting lines from third rail to OLE would be at the very least equal to, if not better than the case for wiring a lot of lines. Out of interest, why do you think that such conversions have no merit? There would certainly be a lot of benefits to it! Additionally, I haven't seen any DfT calls for conversion, but have only seen them from people within NR, such as P.P.

The likelihood of any major electrification being 3rd rail nowadays is absolutely tiny. Not only is it more dangerous, but it is also arguably the worst form of electrification that is used in the UK. Lines like Marshlink, Uckfield, and the North Downs will almost certainly be electrified using 25kV OLE, when they are electrified.

As for your last sentence, it depends how old you are. I certainly would hope that a large part of it is done within my lifetime.

The conversions have merit but as I said not before wiring of non-electrified lines in my opinion.

What about Basingstoke to Southampton - thats a DfT call for conversion.

More years ahead than behind me all things being equal and the lord spares me.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
I'm not so sure. I think that in many cases, the business case for converting lines from third rail to OLE would be at the very least equal to, if not better than the case for wiring a lot of lines. Out of interest, why do you think that such conversions have no merit? There would certainly be a lot of benefits to it! Additionally, I haven't seen any DfT calls for conversion, but have only seen them from people within NR, such as P.P.

The likelihood of any major electrification being 3rd rail nowadays is absolutely tiny. Not only is it more dangerous, but it is also arguably the worst form of electrification that is used in the UK. Lines like Marshlink, Uckfield, and the North Downs will almost certainly be electrified using 25kV OLE, when they are electrified.

As for your last sentence, it depends how old you are. I certainly would hope that a large part of it is done within my lifetime.

If any 3rd rail was to be converted to 25KV AC first, then I suspect that it is going to be the Basingstoke - Southampton. But I do not see that happening much before 2025 and probably 2030 is more likely, by which time I will be 61.

The likes of Marshlink, Uckfield and North Downs, I cannot see happening before the BML route, unless they are used in some form within the BML2 route in any form.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Another pair has gone down today. 208/209

387208/209 moved today as 08+35 Bletchley TMD to Three Bridges Tillgate Sidings. This leaves the fleet in the current position;

201 - Lovers Walk
202 - Stewarts Lane
203 - Stewarts Lane
204 - Derby
205 - Bletchley TMD
206 - Stewarts Lane
207 - Bletchley TMD
208 - Tillgate Sidings (Three Bridges Depot)
209 - Tillgate Sidings (Three Bridges Depot)
210 - Derby
211 - Derby
212 - Derby
213 - Derby
214 - Derby
215 - Derby
216-227 - Under Construction
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
If any 3rd rail was to be converted to 25KV AC first, then I suspect that it is going to be the Basingstoke - Southampton. But I do not see that happening much before 2025 and probably 2030 is more likely, by which time I will be 61.

The likes of Marshlink, Uckfield and North Downs, I cannot see happening before the BML route, unless they are used in some form within the BML2 route in any form.

Basingstoke to Southampton conversion planning is scheduled to start in 2019, physical works would be end CP6 or CP7, so 2025. Reading to Basingstoke has moved inside GWep and other bits of the Electric Spine plod along now MML wiring has resumed.
 

Sunset route

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,189
387208/209 moved today as 08+35 Bletchley TMD to Three Bridges Tillgate Sidings. This leaves the fleet in the current position;

201 - Lovers Walk
202 - Stewarts Lane
203 - Stewarts Lane
204 - Derby
205 - Bletchley TMD
206 - Stewarts Lane
207 - Bletchley TMD
208 - Tillgate Sidings (Three Bridges Depot)
209 - Tillgate Sidings (Three Bridges Depot)
210 - Derby
211 - Derby
212 - Derby
213 - Derby
214 - Derby
215 - Derby
216-227 - Under Construction

Handy little bolthole them Tilgate sidings, enough room the hide away 10 units until GatEx is ready for them :D
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Handy little bolthole them Tilgate sidings, enough room the hide away 10 units until GatEx is ready for them :D

It'll soon prove it's worth I'm sure. This thread will be interested in its workings that's for sure.

Oh and 387202 is now at Streatham Hill.
 

leaffall

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
76
Just seen a note saying the 387/2 will be entering temporary service with thameslink from weds
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top