Class 43 HST cascade fate

[doningtonphil]

Sorry if I have missed finding the information in searches I have completed.

With the 'imminent' arrival of new stock at GWR, have all of the HST fleet from GWR been found a new home? Will some be going to scrap?

 

[Domh245]

Some are going to scotrail. Some are being reformed into shorter rakes (2+4) to operate local services in the west country. Rest will most likely be for scrap.

 

[sprinterguy]

27 sets are going to Scotrail; 14 initially in 2+4 formation and 13 in 2+5.

As far as I am aware, it is currently believed that 11 sets in 2+4 formation will be utilised by GWR in lieu of pairs of 158s on Plymouth - Penzance and (possibly?) Cardiff - Taunton trains.

That leaves 15 of GWRs' HST sets unallocated, as well as a large number of trailer vehicles displaced from the shortened Scotrail and GWR sets.

 

[221129]

As far as I am aware, it is currently believed that 11 sets in 2+4 formation will be utilised by GWR in lieu of pairs of 158s on Plymouth - Penzance and (possibly?) Cardiff - Taunton trains.

To be used on Penzance - Cardiff services (and variations of)

 

[Harbornite]

In addition to the 15 "spare" GWR HST sets, there are currently no plans for the VTEC HSTs or the Grand Central HSTs. As for the EMT and XC HSTs, they are not urrently threatened, although the EMT sets will be once the MML is electrified. When Virgin XC and FGW withdrew their HST sets the first time round, most were stored but one was snapped up by Cotswold Rail.

 

[Mordac]

I wish XC would take them to displace Voyagers on the longer journeys. They probably don't want to spend anything on refurbishing them though.

 

[Harbornite]

I wish XC would take them to displace Voyagers on the longer journeys. They probably don't want to spend anything on refurbishing them though.

That is a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out just yet...

 

[broadgage]

I expect a few HSTs to end up with charter operators and on heritage lines.

There should be enough first class coaches and restaurants to make up a couple of sets with all or mainly first class and two kitchens. That would be ideal for the "luxury days out" market. A go (almost) anywhere train without the constraints of having to run the loco round at the terminus.

Otherwise redundant HSTs could be attractive to the larger heritage lines, after all, they ARE borderline heritage ! The first ones ran only a few years after the end of steam.
On the West Somerset Railway during the tourist season, the first train to Minehead is regularly overcrowded with families seeking a day out beside the sea.
An HST running "fast" to Minehead would appeal to those wanting to get to the beach more quickly, with an "all stations" steam hauled service shortly afterwards for those who enjoy more tradition.
A case could be made that an HST at 40 MPH is no less safe than vacuum braked steam hauled coaches at 25MPH.

 

[sprinterguy]

When Virgin XC and FGW withdrew their HST sets the first time round, most were stored but one was snapped up by Cotswold Rail.

Unless I'm missing something critical, FGW have only ever expanded their HST fleet, not reduced it, excluding the storage of c.15 TRFB vehicles following the creation of the high density sets and the short term loan of one HST set to Midland Mainline around 2004. In fact, FGW have taken on a fair proportion of the 26 or so HST sets that Virgin Crosscountry used to operate.

Midland Mainline were the first major user of the displaced Virgin XC sets, taking on around half of their power cars and presumably their carriage rakes too, which were quickly pressed into service on "Project Rio" services in 2003. GNER also took on a couple of power cars fairly quickly, 43067 and 43080, in the short term and a few more later on. Cotswold Rail only took on an HST set in late 2005, which was a former Midland Mainline "Project Rio" set (the coaching stock never lost its' MML livery).

 

[RobShipway]

With the doors changed from being manual to be electronically operated in a similar way to the Chiltern Mk3's, I can see the HST's short formed being useful to other companies such as Arriva Wales for express Holyhead - Cardiff services. Alas, I cannot see this happening.

It is just a shame that the doors for the Mk3's are in the wrong place as they could have replaced the 165/166's on the Reading - Gatwick service. But I do like the idea of the HSTs replacing the XC Voyagers, but again cannot see it happening.

 

[matt]

Personally I would be surprised if any HSTs are scrapped in the near future.

 

[Harbornite]

I can see the HST's short formed being useful to other companies such as Arriva Wales for express Holyhead - Cardiff services. Alas, I cannot see this happening.

Bit of a juxtaposition you've got there!

 

[RobShipway]

Bit of a juxtaposition you've got there!

Heart is telling me one thing, brain is saying don't be so stupid...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Personally I would be surprised if any HSTs are scrapped in the near future.

Much will depend on the electrification commitments in CP6 and CP7, HST can be pushed to 2035 but eventually fatigue and corrosion will catch up with them.

 

[59CosG95]

Much will depend on the electrification commitments in CP6 and CP7, HST can be pushed to 2035 but eventually fatigue and corrosion will catch up with them.

That's just the coaching stock; only time will tell how much longer (or shorter) the powercars last.

 

[DenmarkRail]

In a great world, HST's should replace 220's and 221's on long services such as PNZ to ABD.

I still think people now are like 'More better trains' ... You will miss these spacious trains when they are gone

 

[co-tr-paul]

Ser gwr cascade thread in railway discussion section...... .

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That's just the coaching stock; only time will tell how much longer (or shorter) the powercars last.

That's the powercars too - they're good through to 2035ish, which is what's being worked on for ScotRail and some forward electrification planning in Scotland and elsewhere.

My guess is HST will see 60 years in service, though I doubt the oldest vehicles will still be in service at that time.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What links to the GWR HST MK3s have (short or long)?

 

[superalbs]

What links to the GWR HST MK3s have (short or long)?

Both GWR sets are all SSL I think, but some FGW sets are LSL.

 

[iantherev]

Both GWR sets are all SSL I think, but some FGW sets are LSL.

And looking at the set on the up Cornishman this lunchtime, some are mixed.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What links to the GWR HST MK3s have (short or long)?

To head off the inevitable question - I'd expect the HST GTI sets to go all SSL so they can run on third rail if required.

 

[cjmillsnun]

In addition to the 15 "spare" GWR HST sets, there are currently no plans for the VTEC HSTs or the Grand Central HSTs. As for the EMT and XC HSTs, they are not urrently threatened, although the EMT sets will be once the MML is electrified. When Virgin XC and FGW withdrew their HST sets the first time round, most were stored but one was snapped up by Cotswold Rail.

It was only VT and VXC who retired HSTs. FGW bought the Cotswold set

 

[Domh245]

To head off the inevitable question - I'd expect the HST GTI sets to go all SSL so they can run on third rail if required.

Would they ever need to run over third rail though? You wouldn't want to run a short service into Waterloo for diversions, or are they expected to work to Weymouth at points?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would they ever need to run over third rail though? You wouldn't want to run a short service into Waterloo for diversions, or are they expected to work to Weymouth at points?

If they mostly will work from Bristol westwards, it makes sense having them also able to work to Weymouth, Portsmouth etc. if required. Of course there's staff knowledge issues nonetheless.

 

[antharro]

I would very much like HSTs to replace XC's Voyagers. I'd certainly be more inclined to use XC services for longer distances from the South, instead of going via London!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To head off the inevitable question - I'd expect the HST GTI sets to go all SSL so they can run on third rail if required.

Where's that like button?!

 

[The Ham]

I would very much like HSTs to replace XC's Voyagers. I'd certainly be more inclined to use XC services for longer distances from the South, instead of going via London!

A 5+2 HST would have about 310 standard class seats plus 24 first class seats which would be a 30% increase over a 221.

Even with just 10 sets, that would allow:
- 10 services run by 221's to be run by 5+2 HST's
- 10 services run by 221's to be run by a pair of 220's
- 20 services run by 220's to be run by 221's

However, if XC could have a total of about 17 "new" sets (either 2+5 HST'S or 221's from ICWC) then all their 220's could always run in pairs (it's about because some 22x's currently run as pairs). However with more then even a few 221's could be run in pairs, and once you get to about 29 "new" sets (although, due to spares and some edges of the network not needing pairs all the time, it could be slightly less), all passenger services run by 22x's could always run in pairs, with the HST's having about 335 seats, and pairs of Voyagers having 400, 450 or 500 seats. Which is quite a marked increase over 200 or 250 for most services.

A 5+2 HST should be able to keep to 22x timings (or at least close enough).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would they ever need to run over third rail though? You wouldn't want to run a short service into Waterloo for diversions, or are they expected to work to Weymouth at points?

What about XC services from Bournemouth (they leave 3rd rail teritory at Basingstoke)?

The HSTs that are used by GWR for their "summertime specials" into Weymouth have to be short link as well.

Were the short link bogies built as long link then later converted to short link or were they built as new as short link? If they were converted, how much work is involved in the conversion process (would it just be easier if GWR were to keep a couple of short links for their summer Weymouth services and the rest of the short links goto XC?

 

[PHILIPE]

What about XC services from Bournemouth (they leave 3rd rail teritory at Basingstoke)?

The HSTs that are used by GWR for their "summertime specials" into Weymouth have to be short link as well.

Were the short link bogies built as long link then later converted to short link or were they built as new as short link? If they were converted, how much work is involved in the conversion process (would it just be easier if GWR were to keep a couple of short links for their summer Weymouth services and the rest of the short links goto XC?

All XC services to Bournemouth are worked by Voyagers.