Class 442’s for ATW?

[krus_aragon]

This week's article on NWRail.org.uk is a retrospective on class 47 hauled services on the North Wales coast at the turn of the century. I'd suggest it as required reading for this thread, if you didn't happen to be around at the time.

 

[gareth950]

The DfT, if not the WG, would say that passenger growth has been lower in Wales than in most other regions, so what's the problem until 2018, when a new franchise starts?

The videos and photos in this article are the problem (keep scrolling to the end).
Civil servants at the DfT should look at the videos and photos in that article and then say there's no need for extra stock in Wales for another 2 years and that passenger growth in Wales compared to other regions in England isn't a problem needing more stock now.

Also videos here and here

The first video is used to illustrate an article on disruption on the valleys but is not a valley lines service, it's a 158 from Newport to Cardiff.

More articles and videos from the summer demonstrating overcrowding in SE Wales: here and here "Trains are now so full passengers are standing in the toilets"

 

[D60]

So... In furtherance to LNW-GW Joint and Gareth950's observations above.. (I haven't worked out yet how to include 2 sets of quotes..)..
Is it "the market", the DfT, the WG, or all players and participants collectively combined that are failing passengers on overcrowded services in Wales..?

 

[PHILIPE]

So... In furtherance to LNW-GW Joint and Gareth950's observations above.. (I haven't worked out yet how to include 2 sets of quotes..)..
Is it "the market", the DfT, the WG, or all players and participants collectively combined that are failing passengers on overcrowded services in Wales..?

The problem originates from the franchise award in 2003 on a no growth basis and which restricts being able to meet changing demands. Supply and demand are not part of the equation in the rail industry.
The WG wanted certain powers to be devolved but haven't a clue how to proceed so far as rail is concerned. As Gareth950 has pointed out on another thread no steps have been taken yet to start making units PRM com pliable, or should this be the responsibility of the ROSCO. Whatever matter, you have to allow the WG dithering time.

 

[childwallblues]

My personal opinion is that they would fit in well on the North Wales Coast services with the Class 67 based at Crewe IEMD. You never know perhaps DBC may withdraw 67023 and 67027 from sale.

 

[The Ham]

My personal opinion is that they would fit in well on the North Wales Coast services with the Class 67 based at Crewe IEMD. You never know perhaps DBC may withdraw 67023 and 67027 from sale.

...or the Welsh Assembly could buy them...

 

[87019Chris]

...or the Welsh Assembly could buy them...

Woah! Calm down there, why would someone want to own trains it's not like you can make money back leasing them out, or reduce operating costs…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Woah! Calm down there, why would someone want to own trains it's not like you can make money back leasing them out, or reduce operating costs…

FirstGroup bought HSTs...

 

[fgwrich]

FirstGroup bought HSTs...

And 143s for a while...

 

[sprinterguy]

And 143s for a while...

The 143s are assets of the Great Western franchise (regardless of operator), AFAIK they were never bought by First.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Woah! Calm down there, why would someone want to own trains it's not like you can make money back leasing them out, or reduce operating costs…

Merseytravel intends to purchase the new stock for Merseyrail, although a deal hasn't been done yet.
The WG has also talked about doing it but nothing certain yet.
The WG even talks about managing stations and selling tickets (ie everything other than running the trains).

 

[D60]

This week's article on NWRail.org.uk is a retrospective on class 47 hauled services on the North Wales coast at the turn of the century. I'd suggest it as required reading for this thread, if you didn't happen to be around at the time.

Yes, an interesting and pertinent retrospective of a period of operation I'd kind of almost forgotten about...
So... the industry coming together to find solutions to chronic rolling stock shortages and unreliability, by using stock displaced from other duties... Sister companies in the same ownership making resources available to meet and fulfil a service need... And displaced freight locos being co-opted for passenger services, continuing an established feature of operations in NW England and North Wales... And even a body providing some measure of 'strategic overview'..! (although I do seem to.recall it being said of the SRA at the time that it was neither particularly 'strategic', nor had much 'authority'... Dunno...)..
But... Evidence of a positively 'can do' attitude on the railway...
Whereas now....??

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, an interesting and pertinent retrospective of a period of operation I'd kind of almost forgotten about...
So... the industry coming together to find solutions to chronic rolling stock shortages and unreliability, by using stock displaced from other duties... Sister companies in the same ownership making resources available to meet and fulfil a service need... And displaced freight locos being co-opted for passenger services, continuing an established feature of operations in NW England and North Wales... And even a body providing some measure of 'strategic overview'..! (although I do seem to.recall it being said of the SRA at the time that it was neither particularly 'strategic', nor had much 'authority'... Dunno...)..
But... Evidence of a positively 'can do' attitude on the railway...
Whereas now....??

That was before the SRA "micromanagement" era which blighted ATW and Northern.
This has more recently been rolled back a little in the new franchises, but not by much.
Basically, the DfT/WG has to agree any increase in TOC costs.
The recent Holyhead-Manchester 67/LHCS for ATW came about only because DfT forced DB to provide it as a condition of buying out Arriva.

 

[SF-02]

The videos and photos in this article are the problem (keep scrolling to the end).
Civil servants at the DfT should look at the videos and photos in that article and then say there's no need for extra stock in Wales for another 2 years and that passenger growth in Wales compared to other regions in England isn't a problem needing more stock now.

Also videos here and here

The first video is used to illustrate an article on disruption on the valleys but is not a valley lines service, it's a 158 from Newport to Cardiff.

More articles and videos from the summer demonstrating overcrowding in SE Wales: here and here "Trains are now so full passengers are standing in the toilets"

Aye even if a franchise as a whole is seeing slower growth (and often its hard to measure if things like a packed train means guards can't sell tickets to many thus numbers underestimated) then that hides what happens within areas.

I know in Southeastern land that slow growth in Kent (2-5%) is far outstripped within London on Metro routes, (5-10%+) yet overall the need may not be seen as being as urgent.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 143s are assets of the Great Western franchise (regardless of operator), AFAIK they were never bought by First.

Are they the ones originally ordered for Swanline? I'd have thought they'd be committed to the Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are they the ones originally ordered for Swanline? I'd have thought they'd be committed to the Wales & Borders franchise.

As all the 143s were initially allocated to North East England none of them will have been ordered for services in South Wales when new, but post-privatisation the three units in question were previously owned by Rail Assets Investments Ltd.

 

[pemma]

That was before the SRA "micromanagement" era which blighted ATW and Northern.
This has more recently been rolled back a little in the new franchises, but not by much.
Basically, the DfT/WG has to agree any increase in TOC costs.
The recent Holyhead-Manchester 67/LHCS for ATW came about only because DfT forced DB to provide it as a condition of buying out Arriva.

And TPE as well. Instead of allowing TPE to order more 185 carriages they were made to take over a route from Virgin and made to use 185s to cover it - so that Voyagers were released for the North Wales/Chester to London services.

Then when TPE finally got to take on additional carriages (the 350s) they had the 170s robbed from under their noses.

 

[59CosG95]

Then when TPE finally got to take on additional carriages (the 350s) they had the 170s robbed from under their noses.

Ironically, by Arriva! (well, Chiltern)

 

[Gareth Marston]

back to the reason the Wales and Border franchise needs more rolling stock - the 0839 from Newtown this morning a 2 car 158 (0730 ex AYW to BHM INTL) left here full and with some standing many had suitcases. No doubt those joining at Welshpool will stand to Shrewsbury. The 19 miles and 24 minutes from Welshpool to Shrewsbury is a longer stand than those that take place on Valley Lines...

 

[anthony263]

ATW need a lot of additional stock not just for the Valley liens network. The Cambrian could certainly do with extra rolling stock.If those 185's go anywehere perhaps ATW/WG should see if any additional 158/159's become available

 

[gareth950]

Interestingly the dire overcrowding on ATW services lately was raised in the Senedd this afternoon with Economy & Transport secretary Ken Skates with a question from Plaid's Adam Price.

A clip on BBC Wales Today tonight showed Ken Skates passing the buck as usual, saying basically: "The recent stock shortages have been caused by too many trains needing wheel repairs due to the leaf fall season. This is not our problem - removing trees from the side of rail lines is a non-devolved area and not enough money is being spent on it. It's totally unacceptable."

Why aren't politicians asking the WG in the Senedd why on earth they haven't got a rolling stock strategy for 2020?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that if you cut all the trees down, they aren't holding embankments together, and so you get more landslips. The railway genuinely can't win on this one, it seems.

 

[gareth950]

The real problem is that Wales hasn't got enough trains full stop, and when there's any reduction in available trains for any reason the network just can't cope.
Neither ATW the WG or the DFT wanto stump up the cash to do anything about it though so passengers have to continue to suffer.

 

[jopsuk]

The problem is that if you cut all the trees down, they aren't holding embankments together, and so you get more landslips. The railway genuinely can't win on this one, it seems.

well. Sort of. Maybe. Or maybe not. Depends upon the soil type and the trees. In some situations the root network of the trees helps create the separation that then becomes the landslip.

If done properly, tree removal will include bank stabilisation work (that maybe be impossible with mature trees in place) to ensure that landslips are less likely

 

[YorkshireBear]

The problem is that if you cut all the trees down, they aren't holding embankments together, and so you get more landslips. The railway genuinely can't win on this one, it seems.

Not as simple as that, it never is.

Oversteep slopes (which most railway ones are) generally do not benefit from root networks but as alluded to above there are so many factors to consider.

 

[Mordac]

The problem is that if you cut all the trees down, they aren't holding embankments together, and so you get more landslips. The railway genuinely can't win on this one, it seems.

Plant pine trees?

 

[D60]

Interestingly the dire overcrowding on ATW services lately was raised in the Senedd this afternoon with Economy & Transport secretary Ken Skates with a question from Plaid's Adam Price.

A clip on BBC Wales Today tonight showed Ken Skates passing the buck as usual, saying basically: "The recent stock shortages have been caused by too many trains needing wheel repairs due to the leaf fall season. This is not our problem - removing trees from the side of rail lines is a non-devolved area and not enough money is being spent on it. It's totally unacceptable."

Why aren't politicians asking the WG in the Senedd why on earth they haven't got a rolling stock strategy for 2020?

So... passengers are being let down in Wales.. as badly, or arguably worse, as anywhere else in the UK...
Previously, I pondered whether this was a failing of a fragmented railway, or fragmented government...
Here we have questions being raised.. and instead of working towards answers and solutions, blame and responsibility being transferred elsewhere... To the casual onlooker, this looks somewhat pathetic, with no real answers forthcoming... unless some greater game is being played whereby the rolling stock situation in Wales is being used as part of an intent of the WG to take over the running of the infrastructure as well...
Meanwhile, passengers in Wales continue to be failed, while potential solutions appear to exist, if only the right heads could be banged together..

 

[Bletchleyite]

So... passengers are being let down in Wales.. as badly, or arguably worse, as anywhere else in the UK...

The North has had it as bad (though obviously Northern is now ordering additional rolling stock and ATW is not). In reality, the regional network has been starved of sufficient rolling stock since the decision was made for 2-for-3 when the 2nd generation DMUs were built, and no subsequent build has ever added enough to solve the problem.

And unlike down South, the problem just requires rolling stock (and possibly the odd platform extension) to solve it - there are not massive infrastructure constraints.

 

[PHILIPE]

If or when, Wales and Borders ever receives any new stock, it needs more than an allocation on a one for one basis. There are many more needed to catch up on the dire shortage that has been accumulating over several years and now reached a critical position.

 

[D60]

The North has had it as bad (though obviously Northern is now ordering additional rolling stock and ATW is not). In reality, the regional network has been starved of sufficient rolling stock since the decision was made for 2-for-3 when the 2nd generation DMUs were built, and no subsequent build has ever added enough to solve the problem.

And unlike down South, the problem just requires rolling stock (and possibly the odd platform extension) to solve it - there are not massive infrastructure constraints.

Yes, the North (of England) was badly served in terms of rail investment for many years... but then a strategic decision was taken that, if economic growth was to contonue at a UK-wide level, investment had to be re-directed from the overheated South-east corner to the under-invested North of England, and rail investment was key to that plan... In other words, a significant degree of strategic overview at a UK-wide level...
It seems that the people of Wales are being let down at this time, for whatever reason... (I'm thinking beyond 'leaves on the line' here..)..