Class 444s on the Alton line

[PhilipW]

I know that Class 450s, often in pairs, are the usual stock on this line, but occasionally Class 444s are used.

Does anyone know which services are booked for 444s ? I was on the 19:23 from Waterloo one weekday evening and that was a 444, whether that was a regular booking or a one-off, I do not know.

Thanks

 

[MCR247]

MF to Alton

0653 5 444
0825 10 444
1625 5 444
1925 5 444

I think thats it. I haven't got time to do the return workings atm - sorry!

 

[Roylang]

MF to Alton

0653 5 444
0825 10 444
1625 5 444
1925 5 444

I think thats it. I haven't got time to do the return workings atm - sorry!

Do they still have the farce at Bentley where only a single door is opened on the 444s and everybody has to make their way to the guard? I used to travel to/from there and had to regularly lug a suitcase through several coaches to find the specific door that was only announced shortly before Bentley.

Damned good reason to have moved

Roy

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Do they still have the farce at Bentley where only a single door is opened on the 444s and everybody has to make their way to the guard? I used to travel to/from there and had to regularly lug a suitcase through several coaches to find the specific door that was only announced shortly before Bentley.

Damned good reason to have moved

Roy

Yes, and I wouldn't describe it as a 'farce'. It's clearly announced on the train, and on station CIS systems. And it's always the same door. Quite easy if you listen to the announcements really.

 

[Roylang]

Yes, and I wouldn't describe it as a 'farce'. It's clearly announced on the train, and on station CIS systems. And it's always the same door. Quite easy if you listen to the announcements really.

Sounds as if things have improved on the announcement front compared with when I used to travel when farce was the only word for it. The door that would open varied depending on how far the guard (who I think at that time got on at Farnham) had got through the train and announcements were made very late, typically as the train slowed for Bentley. This was bank in the days when the 444s were new to the Alton line.

That said, I still find it incredible that we cannot build trains today that are able to open, as an example, the doors in coached 2 through 4 only.

Roy

 

[MCR247]

We can, but SDO was evidently not put in the spec for 450s or 444s

 

[Roylang]

We can, but SDO was evidently not put in the spec for 450s or 444s

Sounds as if whoever spec'ed the 444s and 450s dropped a clanger.

I wonder what will happen with the extended 458s as even a single 5 car unit will be too long for Bentley IIRC and I gather the plan is to use 10 car 458s to Alton for some services.

Roy

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sounds as if things have improved on the announcement front compared with when I used to travel when farce was the only word for it. The door that would open varied depending on how far the guard (who I think at that time got on at Farnham) had got through the train and announcements were made very late, typically as the train slowed for Bentley. This was bank in the days when the 444s were new to the Alton line.

That said, I still find it incredible that we cannot build trains today that are able to open, as an example, the doors in coached 2 through 4 only.

Roy

I agree; it's not perfect. However it now, at least, is always the second door on the front coach and is clearly announced. Obviously your experience was teething troubles.

 

[MCR247]

Sounds as if whoever spec'ed the 444s and 450s dropped a clanger.

I wonder what will happen with the extended 458s as even a single 5 car unit will be too long for Bentley IIRC and I gather the plan is to use 10 car 458s to Alton for some services.

Roy

Nooo, they are for Windsor?

It was also an oversight on 350s and 220/221s as well which were built in times where SDO was prominent

 

[Roylang]

Nooo, they are for Windsor?

It was also an oversight on 350s and 220/221s as well which were built in times where SDO was prominent

I have read at least two articles in the last couple of weeks that have quoted them as also being used for some Alton services. Away for work at the moment but will look them up when I am back home this weekend.

Roy

 

[swt_passenger]

I have read at least two articles in the last couple of weeks that have quoted them as also being used for some Alton services. Away for work at the moment but will look them up when I am back home this weekend.

Roy

SWT's press release put it this way:

A limited number of mainline trains between London Waterloo and Portsmouth, Southampton and Alton will also be lengthened by cascading rolling stock.

from: http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extracapacity.aspx
the editors notes at the end explain the services where stock changes.

I took all that info to mean that the 36 x 458/5s (vice 30 x 458s) will allow various 450s and 444s to be reallocated onto other routes such as Alton.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nooo, they are for Windsor?

That's right, but in SWT's area the 'Windsor side' is also shorthand for a number of routes that don't go to Windsor. The press release gave the details as follows:

The additional carriages will enable trains on the following routes to be lengthened from 8 to 10 cars:
o Waterloo-Windsor & Eton (Riverside),
o Waterloo-Weybridge via Brentford and Staines,
o Waterloo-Hounslow via both Richmond and Brentford.
This will be achieved through the introduction of 60 Class 460 vehicles which will be combined with the existing Class 458 stock to form 36x5-car trains

That is all the routes covered normally by the HC 450/5s.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't have the details to hand but at least 2 x 10 car sets will be stabled at Strawberry Hill overnight.

 

[Roylang]

SWT's press release put it this way:


from: http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extracapacity.aspx
the editors notes at the end explain the services where stock changes.

I took all that info to mean that the 36 x 458/5s (vice 30 x 458s) will allow various 450s and 444s to be reallocated onto other routes such as Alton.

Fully agree with what you say there, but at least one of the articles I read specifically mentioned 10-car trains to Alton with the inference that they were to be 458s. I can't see 444s being displaced to the Alton line given the compaints about them being shifted off the Portsmouth services.

What services are the 458s working on the Ash Vale -> Aldershot line today? I assume Guildford / Ascot? I have seen a few going over the A331 bridge on my way to the airport, last one probably only a month ago.

Roy

 

[SWT_USER]

I think the 458's still do a couple of peak services from Waterloo > Aldershot via Twickenham and Ascot.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Guildford - Ascot via Aldershot weekday regular service (ie ignoring the through Waterloo extras) currently uses a mixed fleet, 3 x 450 and 2 x 458.

There were rumours originally that this route would retain a sub fleet of 6 x 4 car 458s, but that's now been overtaken by the confirmation that it will be 36 x 5 cars post conversion, and 5 car trains aren't mentioned for this route - so it must end up by default as using all 450s?

 

[Class377/5]

We can, but SDO was evidently not put in the spec for 450s or 444s

Was mentioned on a forum that Siemens don't do SDO, they have their own version which means you have selective train opening. Where as the 377 can, say, open doors on 10 out of 12 carriages, the Desiro can only do 4, 8 or 12 car. One of the reason why Crewe has to be a single 350 despite needing more carriages.

Not sure of this applies to the 380's but it better apply to the Desiro Cities as Thameslink requires SDO usage.

 

[TEW]

I think the 458's still do a couple of peak services from Waterloo > Aldershot via Twickenham and Ascot.

Yeh, the Waterloo-Aldershot peak services are in the hands of 458s and as previously mentioned some of the Ascot-Guildford services. It's rare but not unheard of for a pair of 458s to work a London-Alton service as well. I believe it was December, but may have been slightly before, last year when a pair of 458s ran a daytime return to Alton from London for a couple of weeks I believe.

 

[Pumbaa]

Was mentioned on a forum that Siemens don't do SDO, they have their own version which means you have selective train opening. Where as the 377 can, say, open doors on 10 out of 12 carriages, the Desiro can only do 4, 8 or 12 car. One of the reason why Crewe has to be a single 350 despite needing more carriages.

Not sure of this applies to the 380's but it better apply to the Desiro Cities as Thameslink requires SDO usage.

Siemens do do SDO - it's just more expensive and the order was for UDS (Unit De-Select) instead as a cheaper alternative.

The Crewe services and Liverpool services will run as 8-car if needed, but UDS used for Atherstone, Rugeley, Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge. The last services from Birmingham to Crewe are both 2 x 350, and the first out are also 2 x 350 calling all stations.

 

[Helvellyn]

458/5 units won't work Alton services as they will be standard class only, probably with 2+2 seating (like on 455s) to increase standing room. My guess is one toilet per unit, of the universal type.

 

[Class377/5]

Siemens do do SDO - it's just more expensive and the order was for UDS (Unit De-Select) instead as a cheaper alternative.

The Crewe services and Liverpool services will run as 8-car if needed, but UDS used for Atherstone, Rugeley, Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge. The last services from Birmingham to Crewe are both 2 x 350, and the first out are also 2 x 350 calling all stations.

Ah I didn't realise that. They operate as I put don't they?

 

[Pumbaa]

Ah I didn't realise that. They operate as I put don't they?

Yes. The UDS (Unit De-Select) locks out units beyond the cab where the UDS switch is flicked.

 

[455driver]

The Guildford- Ascot service is now 3x458 and 2x450 and has been for a few months.

8x458 currently work 3 morning services to Waterloo via Richmond and 2 returns in the evening-
1N90 Aldershot (0628)- Waterloo ((0759)
1N92 Aldershot (0700)- Waterloo (0829)
1N94 Aldershot (0730)- Waterloo (0900)

Returns are-
1N93 Waterloo (1705)- Aldershot (1831)
1N95 Waterloo (1805)- Aldershot (1934)

 

[HSTEd]

Siemens do do SDO - it's just more expensive and the order was for UDS (Unit De-Select) instead as a cheaper alternative.

How much does this save.....

 

[Ministry]

Was mentioned on a forum that Siemens don't do SDO, they have their own version which means you have selective train opening. Where as the 377 can, say, open doors on 10 out of 12 carriages, the Desiro can only do 4, 8 or 12 car. One of the reason why Crewe has to be a single 350 despite needing more carriages.

Not sure of this applies to the 380's but it better apply to the Desiro Cities as Thameslink requires SDO usage.

When 450s are used on the Lymington Branch don't they lock the 4th carriage of the unit out of use and run it as a three car service?

 

[swt_passenger]

When 450s are used on the Lymington Branch don't they lock the 4th carriage of the unit out of use and run it as a three car service?

They did that on the odd occasion 450s replaced the slammers, but they lengthened the platforms just prior to the withdrawal to allow for regular use of 450s...

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes - all the platforms are long enough to take a 450. Not that it matters at the moment - Rail Replacement Bus between Town and Pier.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How much does this save.....

I have no idea - I've never ordered a Desiro for myself!

 

[Ministry]

They did that on the odd occasion 450s replaced the slammers, but they lengthened the platforms just prior to the withdrawal to allow for regular use of 450s...

If they were able to lock one carriage out of use in a four car unit why can't they do that on other services rather than locking an entire unit out of use and asking passengers to move into the front unit(s)? I'm sure SWT et al know how their Desiro units work better than I do, I'm just curious as to whether this can be done.

 

[Nym]

How much does this save.....

On the pre-380 Desiro designs, quite a lot as there would be a much larger wiring harness that would need to pass throughout all of the units.

On 380s and Desiro City models, it comes as part of a software modification because doors, motor controls etc, are all controlled by a micro controller translated multi drop cable, so it would simply be a software addition into the uCs with a bit of extra communication, into the layers. Since each carriage or door will have an ordered ID (thanks to working on a multidrop cable) will mean you can select SDO using the TMS with nothing more than a software modification.

For 350s, you'd need to add a heck of a lot more wiring, or place door controls at each one and run it as a control de-select where everything in front or behind of the selected door, as works on Mk3s.

Of course on any Desiro units you can simply lock a desired door out of use, as is done on 185s doubled up at Salford Crescent, and the lockout enables the control lock out on that set of doors, so it indicates "Door not in use" and will not illuminate the controls.

 

[swt_passenger]

If they were able to lock one carriage out of use in a four car unit why can't they do that on other services rather than locking an entire unit out of use and asking passengers to move into the front unit(s)? I'm sure SWT et al know how their Desiro units work better than I do, I'm just curious as to whether this can be done.

It was one end car physically/mechanically locked out with doorkeys prior to leaving the depot for the day. A notice explaining that the car was out of use was stuck on the interior and exterior doors at one end of the train, so it effectively ran as a three car. With the unit stuck on the branch all day this was deemed to be a practical solution, but you couldn't operate a service like that on the normal parts of the network. The normal concept of SDO or UDS is to allow the full train to be occupied by people using the full length platforms on its particular route, with SDO/UDS only used at a small minority of the station calls.

 

[Juniper Driver]

That said, I still find it incredible that we cannot build trains today that are able to open, as an example, the doors in coached 2 through 4 only.

Roy

They can,but hasn't it been worked out yet that all this stuff costs more money.