Class 444s

[TomJ93]

The squeal earnt them the name sci-fi train with me

Has anybody got plenty of shots of the interior? I'd love to see some, especially the buffet!

 

[Pumbaa]

Costly mods = More money,they weren't built with the ability to lock out doors as this would cost more money*.I don't think it was Siemens fault that this wasn't fitted.I really need to look at a 350 to see what the difference is.

There are a few things which need looking at on our desiro's (450,444),the call for aid being one and also the egress handles.

There is no difference in SDO operation between any of the Siemens fleet. 380s are the first ones to have the ability to lock out car by car, rather than by unit. I don't think Siemens intentially chose this system over a more complicated system like Bombardiers MITRAC, I just don't think it would have been considered. The technology worked on their previous products for Europe so it would work here as well.

 

[notadriver]

it maybe the line speed where you're at.

check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlYcVghvWo

Hmm i think also the superior ride of a Class 444 gives less of an impression of speed. However check out :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwSSUd5kwX4

 

[MrC]

Hmm i think also the superior ride of a Class 444 gives less of an impression of speed.

Not convinced over the ride quality TBH. 442s or 220/221s over the same track were/are generally more forgiving of less than perfect track, and travelling in a Desiro over jointed track really does bring home how bad they can be. Again, it's worse in the motor coaches.

 

[MCR247]

The squeal earnt them the name sci-fi train with me

Has anybody got plenty of shots of the interior? I'd love to see some, especially the buffet!

A quick 'class 444 interior' should help

 

[Matt Taylor]

444005 DMSO:

http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p68373059.html

 

[fgwrich]

That would explain why the overhauls have been fairly quick then, if the actual bogie work is being done elsewhere and Eastleigh are just swapping in the refurbished ones.

Siemens are carrying out most of the work in house, but because of space constraints at Northam, the overhauls are taking place in Eastleigh Works.

Works involved really are only a thorough overhaul, replacement of various parts, bogies off for overhaul at Wabtec (Doncaster) - all in all, it only takes about a week to overhaul either a 444 or 450 - both of which are taking place at the moment...

And, another rather impressive feat of engineering of the Desiro fleet is, those bogies have been under those things since new, day in day out – back and forth between Waterloo / Portsmouth / Basingstoke / Southampton / Bournemouth / Weymouth, and these are the first time they’ve actually come in for overhaul!

Beat that Bombardier!

 

[fgwrich]

Or even to Kings Lynn where the buffet really would be ideal, I would easily give up the 321s, 317s on the GN if it meant getting a 444 type to replace them.

Opps nearly forgot, the Thameslink route would have been perfect for them were it not for the restrictions regarding Snow Hill tunnels especially on the Bedford to Brighton run

You mean, Like This ?

 

[TGV]

Are those bogies, or roller skates underneath those carriages?!

 

[MCR247]

 

[fgwrich]

Are those bogies, or roller skates underneath those carriages?!

True - hadn't really botherd with the bogies, as it was just a 'fun' relivery from the Wikipedia based 444

 

[RobShipway]

Having rode on the class 444 trains a few times when they were working the London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour services, they are the most comfortable trains I have travelled in for a while.

The only shame for me is that we are not going to see an AC version of the Class 444 trains anytime soon which is a shame as I think those with a batch of class 350's would be better trains than the class 319's when the Great Western Main line is electrified.

 

[Greenback]

I have only travelled on the 444's twice, but I was very impressed by the interior. The large windows were very nice, and the seats very comfortable. I would be happy if they were used on my local line!

 

[anthony263]

I have only travelled on the 444's twice, but I was very impressed by the interior. The large windows were very nice, and the seats very comfortable. I would be happy if they were used on my local line!

Yes but would a class 444 fit in swansea ststion because of the carriage length unless the carriages are shortened. Besides i doubt these class 450/444 woudl actually be able to fit down the pembroke dock line, i still dont know how the hst managed considering how tight some of the curved are along the branch ( Narbeth being the worst)

 

[Greenback]

No, they wouldn't fit in but I was just making the point that I wish I had the opportunity to travel on them more often!

 

[sprinterguy]

I’ve never travelled on a 444, but I’ve had lots of experience as a passenger on other Desiro variants and as such the idea of a long-distance spec, 5 carriage Desiro sounds fantastic to me, and so I admire them from afar as it were. They look like excellent trains IMO. If there was any hope of the North Transpennine route being electrified in the medium term, then I’d love to see an AC variant of the 444 operating the route, and I’ve got my fingers crossed that that is what is ordered for the Manchester-Scotland route.

On a vaguely related note, if we have to have under-floor engine DMUs on the Crosscountry route, then I wish that BR had got in with replacement stock in the early nineties, with a DEMU version of the 442 (A class 244 perhaps), so that we would never have had Voyagers foisted upon us. Five carriages (A seven carriage version would have been fun), through corridor connections, mark 3 bodyshell with sliding plug doors, the ability to be hauled by locos in the event of an emergency…It would have been bliss…

 

[Drsatan]

I’d love to see an AC variant of the 444 operating the route, and I’ve got my fingers crossed that that is what is ordered for the Manchester-Scotland route.

I think that this has already been discussed on the forum, but building a new batch of 444s would not be possible since the jigs used to construct the bodyshells have been destroyed. I agree with you that an AC version of the 444 would be fantastic for the Northern Transpennine and Manchester-Scotland.

On a vaguely related note, if we have to have under-floor engine DMUs on the Crosscountry route, then I wish that BR had got in with replacement stock in the early nineties, with a DEMU version of the 442 (A class 244 perhaps), so that we would never have had Voyagers foisted upon us. Five carriages (A seven carriage version would have been fun), through corridor connections, mark 3 bodyshell with sliding plug doors, the ability to be hauled by locos in the event of an emergency…It would have been bliss…

A DEMU version of the 442 sounds attractive, but I don't think a DEMU with a corridor connection could achieve 125mph because the aerodynamic drag caused by a corridor connection with a steeply-sloping front end would mean that a much larger engine would be needed to achieve 125mph. I think that if BR survived the 47s would have been refurbished, and then eventually replaced by HSTs displaced from an electrified MML.

 

[Via Bank]

I think that this has already been discussed on the forum, but building a new batch of 444s would not be possible since the jigs used to construct the bodyshells have been destroyed. I agree with you that an AC version of the 444 would be fantastic for the Northern Transpennine and Manchester-Scotland.

Of course, but it's standard practice to destroy the jigs. All you need is the blueprints and enough money to start up the production line again (i.e. build some new jigs) and Siemens could spit out as many 444s as you would be willing to cough up for.

To be honest I'd anticipate that any new Desiros (including any new stock for SWT, which they need for capacity but aren't going to get) would be built based on the design used in the Class 380s (Desiro Mk II, if you will.) From what I've seen of the 380 anyway, it has much of the 444's lovely ambience (plus plenty of tables, and better PIS displays) so it's no great leap that TPE might get some similar 4- or 5-car EMUs to replace their existing diesel stock - which, let's not forget, consists mostly of Desiros.

On this note, does anyone know if the 380s, with their sloping cab ends, are coupling-compatible with older Desiros? Just looking at them, it looks like the ironing-board would probably fold up into roughly the right place for the corridor connections to work, but I don't claim to be an expert.

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder how modular the 380 jigs/design are- whether using the same jigs "intercity" layout doors would be possible?

But you're quite right- destroying jigs is far from the deal breaker it is; I'm not sure those who seem to think it is a deal breaker actually understand what a jig is...

 

[The_Stig]

On this note, does anyone know if the 380s, with their sloping cab ends, are coupling-compatible with older Desiros? Just looking at them, it looks like the ironing-board would probably fold up into roughly the right place for the corridor connections to work, but I don't claim to be an expert.

No, the electrical head is directly under the corridor connection, above the coupler whereas on other UK desiro's have the electrical head below the coupler

 

[Daimler]

I wonder how modular the 380 jigs/design are- whether using the same jigs "intercity" layout doors would be possible?

But you're quite right- destroying jigs is far from the deal breaker it is; I'm not sure those who seem to think it is a deal breaker actually understand what a jig is...

It mightn't be a complete 'deal breaker', but surely it's more likely as a result that when tendering for stock, Siemens will offer what's easiest (and cheapest) for them - using the existing jigs with doors at the 1/3 & 2/3 positions. I would be very surprised if the DfT made a special effort to lay down a 'rule' that the new Manchester-Scotland trains should have intercity-style door configuration, and so it's extremely unlikely that Siemens will feel the need to offer it - had the jigs still existed, there might have been more of a chance.

 

[RobShipway]

If DFT wanted intercity doors, you may find that the jigs for the Class 380 could be altered to accomodate the DFT request if it was given. However, since the class 185 currently doing the Manchester - Scotland services do not have InterCity doors then it is unlikely that any trains from Siemens would have InterCity doors.

 

[swt_passenger]

If DFT wanted intercity doors, you may find that the jigs for the Class 380 could be altered to accomodate the DFT request if it was given. However, since the class 185 currently doing the Manchester - Scotland services do not have InterCity doors then it is unlikely that any trains from Siemens would have InterCity doors.

But 444s do have end doors. If end doors were specified for a newly ordered train they'd get them. The 185s got 1/3 & 2/3 doors because that's what was asked for given the nature of their original routes. They weren't originally intended for Manchester Scotland services, so that wasn't a factor.

IMO far too much difficulty is assumed about jigs or lack of jigs. Unless they are completely stupid over in Germany they'll have the jig drawings, that's all they'd need to build however many sets they'd need.

 

[387star]

They are deemed unfairly worse than 442s they are fine replacements. The first class compartments and bar plus generous seating on wessex electrics were out of place with the timesF
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are any diagrammed to work 444/450 out of interest? I'd like to look out for these

 

[swt_passenger]

Are any diagrammed to work 444/450 out of interest? I'd like to look out for these

Yes.

There's 5P71 00+05 Portsmouth and Southsea to Fratton Depot, arr 00+12 which is a 444/450, and er... that's it.

Unless you really want to go all the way down to Pompey to see that one some night, blue/white combos only occur when something has gone wrong, eg trains have been out of position due to engineering work or a service timetabled to join has used the wrong type of unit.

Depot to depot 'Q paths' [which only run as required] such as Northam to Clapham yard are another time you might see them running.

 

[NXEA!]

444+450 combo's do turn up sometimes. There's only been two times I've seen them working together - one on a Weymouth turn and one on a Portsmouth Harbour service. Unless for some reason there is a train failure and that's all that's available, you won't see them together and even if you do see them its a case of being in the right place at the right time. I've been quite lucky to see such a pairing twice I think, but both times I've not had my camera on me.

 

[387star]

Ah would be a treat to ride one!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Have they stopped doing that routinely now then? I'm sure there were some daylight diagrams that were regular for 444 + 450 as I often saw one at about the same time each day off Waterloo a year or two ago, but I can't recall the time or destination.

 

[swt_passenger]

Couldn't find any planned 444/450s in the previous two years CWNs, ie Dec 2008 and Dec 2009, not even the ECS moves.

I wonder if when you saw it regularly it was a period when they had a few 444s out of action following damage, and/or ice related problems.

 

[thefab444]

I seem to recall the 19:05 Waterloo - Weymouth being a 444 + 450 fairly regularly for a while a few years back. Was "short term" plan though, so didn't make it into the CWNs.