Class 450 on commuter routes!

[waterboo]

I was just wondering, why do SWT operate class 450's on busy commuter routes such as the Hounslow loop. The problem I have is that the doors take a considerable amount of time to open and close compared to 455, which does not help considering commuter time tables are very tight. Coulden't they substitute these routes with class 455's???

 

[Urban Gateline]

I was just wondering, why do SWT operate class 450's on busy commuter routes such as the Hounslow loop. The problem I have is that the doors take a considerable amount of time to open and close compared to 455, which does not help considering commuter time tables are very tight. Coulden't they substitute these routes with class 455's???

455's are already being used on other busy commuter routes, so where do you suggest SWT take these from? Do you mean using the 456's that were intended to work the Guildford to Ascot route?

You are right about the doors, but a good Guard can release and close them quickly whilst still operating safely, operating from one of the cabs is quicker than local door operation!

 

[jopsuk]

they do have a plan to replace them, that's what the 458 five car/fleet expansion programme is in the short term, and the interest in Desiro City units for the long term

 

[Goldfish62]

Had things gone according to plan, 450s would by now no longer be on the Hounslow loop, but 458/5s (with faster doors) would be instead - but that's quite another story...

The Hounslow loop service interworks with, and includes, the Weybridge via Staines services. Chertsey and Addlestone have short platforms which 8 car 455s cannot serve due to lack of SDO. Therefore 450s have to be used.

 

[TEW]

they do have a plan to replace them, that's what the 458 five car/fleet expansion programme is in the short term, and the interest in Desiro City units for the long term

Desiro City units would more likely be used for the currently 455 operated suburban routes as they will be in need of 10-carriages.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was just wondering, why do SWT operate class 450's on busy commuter routes such as the Hounslow loop. The problem I have is that the doors take a considerable amount of time to open and close compared to 455, which does not help considering commuter time tables are very tight.

There was a major timetable re-write about the time the Desiros were introduced, presumably to take into account the increased dwell times. The idea that they are running around on the same timings as before they were introduced doesn't match the reality...

 

[hassaanhc]

I do love the loud bang the doors make when they close, they have this very solid feel to them :P. I use the Hounslow line about 3 times a week and see no problems with the trains running late. Although the door closing speed seems the same between both the 450 and 455 (don't forget the length of alarm before the doors actually start to close on the 455). I prefer the 450 over a 455, opinion of the 458/5 is reserved until I ride one (the current 458/0 are decent though)

 

[Monty]

The 450s are not ideal for the Hounslow loop by any stretch of the imagination. Personally I agree that the 455s are the best unit for the job, unfortunately SWT do not have enough units to cover all it's metro routes with the 455. When the 458/5s are introduced the extra coaches should help with overcrowding but it remains to be seen if they are any more suited than the 450s ever were.

 

[455driver]

458s and 450s have the same style of passenger doors so there wont be any improvement.

455s are best for suburban routes but, as Monty has stated, SWT simply dont have enough of them to cover everything.

 

[DownSouth]

Desiro City units would more likely be used for the currently 455 operated suburban routes as they will be in need of 10-carriages.

The spec for the Thameslink units is not a stone tablet carried down a mountain by Charlton Heston which says either "thou shalt only order Desiro City units in a 10 car configuration" or "thou shalt only order 10 car units if they are Desiro City units.


New-build sets of any type, Desiro City or otherwise, could be built to whatever length and interior specification the operator felt necessary and the manufacturer felt able to use as a bid for the tender. I'm sure Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi would have something to say about any assumption a 10 car unit must be only a Desiro City.

 

[jopsuk]

You seem to have got carried with shooting down assumptions- the Thameslink sets will be 8 & 12 car long. It is Crossrail that will be 10 car.

 

[MCR247]

The spec for the Thameslink units is not a stone tablet carried down a mountain by Charlton Heston which says either "thou shalt only order Desiro City units in a 10 car configuration" or "thou shalt only order 10 car units if they are Desiro City units.


New-build sets of any type, Desiro City or otherwise, could be built to whatever length and interior specification the operator felt necessary and the manufacturer felt able to use as a bid for the tender. I'm sure Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi would have something to say about any assumption a 10 car unit must be only a Desiro City.

What? I'm pretty sure he is saying 10 car because there are currently a load of platform extensions taking place so 10 car trains can run, and therefore it is quite likely that if SWT got desiro cities, it would be likely they would be able to run in 10 car formation...

 

[badassunicorn]

surely the greater acceleration of the 450's outweighs the few seconds the doors take to open and close compared to the 455's?

 

[David Goddard]

The rate Southern are bringing in 377s one could speculate that some of their 455s could be spare in the next few years. Time to bring the whole fleet to Wimbledon.....

 

[455driver]

surely the greater acceleration of the 450's outweighs the few seconds the doors take to open and close compared to the 455's?

What greater acceleration?
Between 0 and 45mph the trains are exactly the same accelerating.

 

[badassunicorn]

sorry, I'm only basing it on my experience with 360's and, for arguments sake, a 317. I find the acceleration difference quite large.

 

[455driver]

360s are AC (and so 100% power), 450s are DC and limited to about 55% power above 5mph.

 

[Lockwood]

We're missing the most important question here:

If the 455s were moved from metro services to suburban on the Hounslow Loop, would they be painted blue or stay red?

 

[455driver]

We're missing the most important question here:

If the 455s were moved from metro services to suburban on the Hounslow Loop, would they be painted blue or stay red?

455s do work Hounslow and Weybridge services, whatever you want to class these services as is irrelevant really.

444s also work Hounslow services when the unit needs to be turned around!

 

[hassaanhc]

444s also work Hounslow services when the unit needs to be turned around!

That is something I'd love to travel on!

In my experience the 455 tend to appear a fair amount on weekends, they seem to be timetables as a single unit only so they can work to Weybridge. Multiples do sometimes appear on weekdays but as mentioned the short platforms at Chertsey must be a nightmare because of the inter working between loop and Weybridge via Hounslow services.

 

[transmanche]

You seem to have got carried with shooting down assumptions- the Thameslink sets will be 8 & 12 car long. It is Crossrail that will be 10 car.

I thought they opted for 9-car trains for Crossrail?

 

[Pumbaa]

444s also work Hounslow services when the unit needs to be turned around!

And to Weybridge. When someone's not paying attention- like today!

 

[waterboo]

surely the greater acceleration of the 450's outweighs the few seconds the doors take to open and close compared to the 455's?

Given that SWT are currently fitting their 455's with AC supply, I think, but don't quote me, that the performance (acceleration) and reliability would increase????

Even if there was a few seconds lag on the 455, this should even it out.

Although, I do have a gut instinct that we may see some 455's from the Sister Southern come our way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given that SWT are currently fitting their 455's with AC supply, I think, but don't quote me, that the performance (acceleration) and reliability would increase????

They aren't fitting 'AC supply', it is AC traction electronics and AC motors. They'll still be limited to what the DC third rail can provide as the input power to the new package.

 

[TEW]

That is something I'd love to travel on!

In my experience the 455 tend to appear a fair amount on weekends, they seem to be timetables as a single unit only so they can work to Weybridge. Multiples do sometimes appear on weekdays but as mentioned the short platforms at Chertsey must be a nightmare because of the inter working between loop and Weybridge via Hounslow services.

The Weybridge and Hounslow Loop trains are booked single 455s on Weekends. However if there is rugby on at Twickenham they'll be 8-car 450s with the Windsor trains formed of 8-car 455s instead of 4-car 450s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The spec for the Thameslink units is not a stone tablet carried down a mountain by Charlton Heston which says either "thou shalt only order Desiro City units in a 10 car configuration" or "thou shalt only order 10 car units if they are Desiro City units.


New-build sets of any type, Desiro City or otherwise, could be built to whatever length and interior specification the operator felt necessary and the manufacturer felt able to use as a bid for the tender. I'm sure Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi would have something to say about any assumption a 10 car unit must be only a Desiro City.

It's very unlikely SWT will be ordering more Suburban stock for any reason other than to form 10-carriage trains as there is a massive programme of platform extensions underway and very limited stock to run 10-carriage services. It might not be 10-carriage units, it might be 5-carriage ones. It's only an assumption that it will Desiro City units because of all the Siemens publicity of Desiro City units in SWT area and because of SWT's history with Desiros.

 

[waterboo]

I think SWT wanted to order more EMU's for 2018 - 2020. I remember seeing an article about this somewhere!

 

[Pumbaa]

There is currently a 36 5-car EMU order out to tender. Three bidders are shortlisted, delivery is for 2018. These will run the 'Windsor lines', essentially Hounslow loop, Weybridge and Windsor services, releasing 458/5s back to Reading duties and others.

 

[Class377/5]

I thought they opted for 9-car trains for Crossrail?

They opted for 9 car 23m stock which is 205m (Crossrail confirmed to LR that the new trains are those length) vs 10 car 20m stock at 200m option in the tender.

I think SWT wanted to order more EMU's for 2018 - 2020. I remember seeing an article about this somewhere!

They do. From August

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...h-west-trains-plans-suburban-train-order.html

Franchised passenger operator South West Trains has invited expressions of interest in separate negotiated contracts to finance and supply between 135 and 250 electric multiple-unit cars to increase capacity on suburban services into London Waterloo.

The operator is seeking EMUs of three to five 20 m cars, suitable for operating in formations of up to 10 cars.

The Department for Transport is expected to approve procurement of the new trains imminently, with entry into service planned to take place between July 2016 and July 2017.

The estimated value of the rolling stock order is between £135m and £425m plus VAT, including two years of maintenance support.

 

[jopsuk]

There is currently a 36 5-car EMU order out to tender. Three bidders are shortlisted, delivery is for 2018. These will run the 'Windsor lines', essentially Hounslow loop, Weybridge and Windsor services, releasing 458/5s back to Reading duties and others.

Which is why the 458s are blue and have easy provision for reinstatement of 1st class.

 

[waterboo]

but a good Guard can release and close them quickly whilst still operating safely, operating from one of the cabs is quicker than local door operation!

That is the unfortunate thing! The good guards are the ones that walk through the carriage.