Class 455

[RichJF]

Morning everyone,

Having passed a stopping service on my way to work, I was sure I counted a 12 carriage formation class 455 near Honor Oak Park, which is strange as I think it comes from Caterham. It was probably me just miscounting, but it got me researching.

Does or has the class 455 ever run in a 12 car arrangement in passenger service? I know the Southern routes do not have 12 car capacity platforms on some routes.

Also, related what are SouthWest going to do to their 455's in this new refurbishment?

Many thanks!

 

[MCR247]

Theres a new SWT class 455 refurbishment?

 

[370001]

Morning everyone,

Having passed a stopping service on my way to work, I was sure I counted a 12 carriage formation class 455 near Honor Oak Park, which is strange as I think it comes from Caterham. It was probably me just miscounting, but it got me researching.

Does or has the class 455 ever run in a 12 car arrangement in passenger service? I know the Southern routes do not have 12 car capacity platforms on some routes.

Also, related what are SouthWest going to do to their 455's in this new refurbishment?

Many thanks!

I frequent SWT land a lot and I have never seen a 12-car 455. Most platforms cannot accommodate a 12 car 455, and the inner subsurban platforms at Waterloo (1-4) certainly cannot.

Im pretty sure though that I have seen Southern 2 x 4car 455/8s coupled to a 2car 456 (10 cars in total).

 

[transmanche]

Theres a new SWT class 455 refurbishment?

Surely not! Haven't they been done relatively recently?

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely not! Haven't they been done relatively recently?

There is, it's being done quite slowly (taking a couple of years to do the whole fleet) but they are being refurbished. The last was done back in around 2003-2004 so for a commuter unit it's probably about time to get them done again and this one is also intended to make them DDA compliant.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely not! Haven't they been done relatively recently?

No, there definitely is a further refurbishment. The initial unit is at Bournemouth for evaluation.

It has been mentioned in earlier threads, I think most recently when we were discussing why Bombardier were apparently no longer interested in refurbs. This is being done by SWT using an increased workforce and new facilities, but under contract to Porterbrook.

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2012/2012-09-28a.aspx

 

[AndyLandy]

Does or has the class 455 ever run in a 12 car arrangement in passenger service? I know the Southern routes do not have 12 car capacity platforms on some routes.

I thought I'd once seen a 12-car formation 455, but I've been informed I was mistaken. A 455 driver has told me that they're limited to four cabs in a formation, so two units/8-cars maximum.

 

[starrymarkb]

Surely not! Haven't they been done relatively recently?

SWT seem to work on a 7 year refurbishment interval for the BR stock. 159s were done in 2000 and 2007

 

[transmanche]

The last was done back in around 2003-2004 so for a commuter unit it's probably about time to get them done again

Gosh, time flies... it doesn't seem that long ago!

Thanks all for the added info.

 

[MCR247]

Gosh, time flies... it doesn't seem that long ago!

Thanks all for the added info.

Same here!

 

[RichJF]

Thanks for the feedback to the original post.

I didn't know that SW operates a cycle of 7 years for certain units. I read on the Stagecoach website that the passenger doors and drivers' doors are due to be completely redeveloped.

Whatever happens, SouthWest do do a damn site better job of making the 455's more attractive than their Southern sisters with that ugly air conditioning unit on the front!!!

 

[Surreytraveller]

You wouldn't usually get 12 car 455s on passenger workings, as the metro platforms only tend to be 8 car lengths long, and a 12 car would require a guard. Empty 12 car 455s are not unknown, and I'm sure they've been on a London - Brighton before?

 

[Monty]

An 8-Car formation is the absolute maximum a 455 can run in service, or so I been told at SWT's training school. I suppose in theory you could run a longer formation in an emergency, but it may require certain a system to be overridden. I'll confirm with a driver when I return to work on Monday.

 

[Helvellyn]

12-car 455s have only been used in service on strike days, to allow trains of maximum formation to run. The last time I recall this happening was in 2006 if my memory isn't playing tricks, when 12-car 455s were used on Woking-Surbiton all stations then non-stop into Waterloo services. The reason I remember this is because there was a question as to where the Guard should be. Again, if I remember correctly it was in the cab of the ninth coach.

Once the 456s come across to SWT some peak commuter services will be formed of 10 coaches, e.g. 455+455+456.

 

[jopsuk]

Where will the Guard be in that formation? Always in the section (either 455+455 or 456) that doesn't have the driver? What do Southern do- or are their 455/456 services DOO?

 

[hwl]

Where will the Guard be in that formation? Always in the section (either 455+455 or 456) that doesn't have the driver? What do Southern do- or are their 455/456 services DOO?

Southern are DOO on those services.

 

[Matt Taylor]

12 car 455s are permitted but extremely rare.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/costaandstephie/6865582150/

 

[Surreyman]

12 car 455s are permitted but extremely rare.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/costaandstephie/6865582150/

Begs a question - much talk about SWT inner suburban moving to a '10 car railway'.
We know about the 458/460 10 car conversions, also the 24 class 456 moving over from Southern, which means in theory 48 x 4 car 455 coupled to a 456 = 24 10 car trains (less maintenance requirements).
So what happens to the remaining 43 4 car units? (21.5 8 car units in practice).
SWT current practice is to run 8 car trains all day on inner suburban routes.
(going off on a tangent, the 458s will displace 450s back to Reading line services, currently 8 car but also planned for 10 car operation sometime in the future, I wonder how?)

 

[MCR247]

Yes, 458s will effectively be swapping with 450/5s afaik

 

[bicbasher]

Where will the Guard be in that formation? Always in the section (either 455+455 or 456) that doesn't have the driver? What do Southern do- or are their 455/456 services DOO?

Southern's are DOO.

The Sydenham slow was upgraded to 10 car length in December 2011.

 

[swt_passenger]

Begs a question - much talk about SWT inner suburban moving to a '10 car railway'.
We know about the 458/460 10 car conversions, also the 24 class 456 moving over from Southern, which means in theory 48 x 4 car 455 coupled to a 456 = 24 10 car trains (less maintenance requirements).
So what happens to the remaining 43 4 car units? (21.5 8 car units in practice).
SWT current practice is to run 8 car trains all day on inner suburban routes.
(going off on a tangent, the 458s will displace 450s back to Reading line services, currently 8 car but also planned for 10 car operation sometime in the future, I wonder how?)

They aren't doing anything quite as simple as just using 24 x 456s to extend that number of 455s. For instance the Guildford - Ascot service is supposed to be going fully over to 456 operation, to release 450s and 458s, so whatever number of 456s end up involved there are nominally allowing ten car services somewhere, but not directly...

Also, there is only very limited capacity for 10 car inner suburban services at Waterloo, until P1 to P4 are sorted out. 4+4+2 10 car formations will be comparatively rare to the best of my knowledge. Checking back to the relevant explanation in wnxx forum, the author reckoned 9 units of 21 in daily use would be tied up on Ascots.

 

[TDK]

I thought I'd once seen a 12-car formation 455, but I've been informed I was mistaken. A 455 driver has told me that they're limited to four cabs in a formation, so two units/8-cars maximum.

When I was based at Selhurst I used to take a 12 car from London Bridge to Selhurst ECS on a regular basis but this was over 10 years ago now so the rules may have changed.

 

[Surreyman]

They aren't doing anything quite as simple as just using 24 x 456s to extend that number of 455s. For instance the Guildford - Ascot service is supposed to be going fully over to 456 operation, to release 450s and 458s, so whatever number of 456s end up involved there are nominally allowing ten car services somewhere, but not directly...

Guildford to Ascot makes sense, use this line myself, would tie up 2 456.
Brockenhurst to Lymington could usefully employ 1 456.

Also, there is only very limited capacity for 10 car inner suburban services at Waterloo, until P1 to P4 are sorted out. 4+4+2 10 car formations will be comparatively rare to the best of my knowledge. Checking back to the relevant explanation in wnxx forum, the author reckoned 9 units of 21 in daily use would be tied up on Ascots.

I understand P 1-4 issues, Modern Railways has an interview re possible rebuilding of W/loo and possibility of going for 12 car railway in long term.
Given that the 455s are starting to receive another refurb (& DDA mods) I would suggest they are going to have a long life 40+ years?
Given the firm commitment to go for a 10 car railway in the medium term
(As well as Windsor and Chertsey, Gfd via Effingham & Kingston loop stations already firmly committed) What rolling stock will be used/Sourced?

 

[David Goddard]

They aren't doing anything quite as simple as just using 24 x 456s to extend that number of 455s. For instance the Guildford - Ascot service is supposed to be going fully over to 456 operation, to release 450s and 458s, so whatever number of 456s end up involved there are nominally allowing ten car services somewhere, but not directly....

Checking back to the relevant explanation in wnxx forum, the author reckoned 9 units of 21 in daily use would be tied up on Ascots.

Interesting point there Can anyone confirm:

*Will the Bagshot line use just single or pairs of Cl456s?
The current timetable suggests five service diagrams so the requirement would be five or ten.

*I assume the current three up/two down peak time through workings (if they remain) would be Cl450s.

*Are they fitting First Class to them, or will the line become Standard Only?

 

[Monty]

I understand P 1-4 issues, Modern Railways has an interview re possible rebuilding of W/loo and possibility of going for 12 car railway in long term. Given that the 455s are starting to receive another refurb (& DDA mods) I would suggest they are going to have a long life 40+ years?
Given the firm commitment to go for a 10 car railway in the medium term
(As well as Windsor and Chertsey, Gfd via Effingham & Kingston loop stations already firmly committed) What rolling stock will be used/Sourced?

Not sure about another 40 years perhaps another 10-15 is more realistic, I have to stress the main reason for these modifications is to make them DDA compliant, they will also receive an external repaint in the process. The work will not be extensive as the refurbishments carried out previously. I'm also unaware of any short/medium term plans to extend the 10 Car scheme to other lines not previously mentioned.

As for the 12 Car 455 discussion, I can only assume the rules have changed over the years as I remember when doing my traction knowledge for 455s we were instructed that an 8 Car formation was the maximum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting point there Can anyone confirm:

*Will the Bagshot line use just single or pairs of Cl456s?
The current timetable suggests five service diagrams so the requirement would be five or ten.

*I assume the current three up/two down peak time through workings (if they remain) would be Cl450s.

*Are they fitting First Class to them, or will the line become Standard Only?

I've been led to believe they will run as single units, 4 Coaches was always overkill for the Ascot - Guildford branch. No idea about first class honestly, I wouldn't think so, it may be there are plans to remove first class from that line.

 

[AndyLandy]

When I was based at Selhurst I used to take a 12 car from London Bridge to Selhurst ECS on a regular basis but this was over 10 years ago now so the rules may have changed.

It turns out that I misunderstood. There's no technical reason a 455 can't run as 12-car. The reason they rarely do is that many platforms won't accommodate trains that long. The only real limitation is how much power the trains draw from the third rail.

 

[455driver]

I thought I'd once seen a 12-car formation 455, but I've been informed I was mistaken. A 455 driver has told me that they're limited to four cabs in a formation, so two units/8-cars maximum.

Which leg was he pulling at the time?

I have seen a 16 coach ECS move once but SWT only run 8s (at the moment) due to platform lengths at Waterloo.

 

[AndyLandy]

Which leg was he pulling at the time?

I have seen a 16 coach ECS move once but SWT only run 8s (at the moment) due to platform lengths at Waterloo.

Quite possibly both of them!

 

[The Colonel]

You wouldn't usually get 12 car 455s on passenger workings, as the metro platforms only tend to be 8 car lengths long, and a 12 car would require a guard. Empty 12 car 455s are not unknown, and I'm sure they've been on a London - Brighton before?

Rare but not unknown to have 12 455 but usually on ecs moves. As stated its because they normally work on 8 car platform lines that its not seen. Same as people always said 12 car Subs weren't allowed - they were but not normally seen. I believe many years ago seaside specials often used 12 Sub's. Another fallacy was that 4 REP's couldn't work with another emu due to line current restrictions - they could work with a 2 car emu and I saw one with a 2 Hap once.

Begs a question - much talk about SWT inner suburban moving to a '10 car railway'.
We know about the 458/460 10 car conversions, also the 24 class 456 moving over from Southern, which means in theory 48 x 4 car 455 coupled to a 456 = 24 10 car trains (less maintenance requirements).
So what happens to the remaining 43 4 car units? (21.5 8 car units in practice).
SWT current practice is to run 8 car trains all day on inner suburban routes.
(going off on a tangent, the 458s will displace 450s back to Reading line services, currently 8 car but also planned for 10 car operation sometime in the future, I wonder how?)

Not all suburban trains will automatically be 10 car services. Until Platforms 1 to 4 at Waterloo are extended full 10 car operation wouldn't be possible anyway, even if stock was available. Initial services will be the busiest ones, and also those which currently use P5 and above at WAT - such as the 07.17 & 08.07 Guildford - WAT and 18.48 WAT - GLD via Cobham which are fast from/to Surbiton. The inital plans in Modern Rlys also showed 2 new services from Raynes Pk to WAT at 07.22 & 09.22 I believe, and these would use P5+ at WAT. I have heard more on this but can't divulge publicly.

Interesting point there Can anyone confirm:

*Will the Bagshot line use just single or pairs of Cl456s?
The current timetable suggests five service diagrams so the requirement would be five or ten.

*I assume the current three up/two down peak time through workings (if they remain) would be Cl450s.

*Are they fitting First Class to them, or will the line become Standard Only?

1 - single units
2 - not sure
3 - 456's will be std only as now.

The 458/5's will internally be like 455's with 2+2 seating, std class only. The 450 HC's will revert to as delivered internally and take over Reading line services workings amongst others.

The intended formation of the 10 car trains is 455+455+456, but whether the 456 will be London or Country end usually hasn't been decided as yet. Also personally I doubt we'll see 455 + 3 x 456 as a 456 is very slightly longer than half a 455. Even 1 x 455 & 2 x 456 would be too long for some platforms on SWT currently. Interesting times ahead.

The Colonel

 

[455driver]

Even 1 x 455 & 2 x 456 would be too long for some platforms on SWT currently. Interesting times ahead.

The Colonel

And who will get the blame when they try it?

I reckon if the driver is careful all the passenger doors will fit but but its going to be tight especially down the new line.

It will be just like when they ran the 12 coach 159 from Eastleigh to Basingstoke and split it into 2x6 coach trains.
Interestingly we were discussing this on a company day shortly after and I was the only one that picked up on the problem!