Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[ScotGG]

When is the first being scrapped I wonder?

 

[gmaguire]

Does anyone know if the replacement of the traction package in the 465/0s and /1s has done anything to reduce or even eliminate the electromagnetic interference?

 

[Roast Veg]

Does anyone know if the replacement of the traction package in the 465/0s and /1s has done anything to reduce or even eliminate the electromagnetic interference?

What interference? The 0s and 1s are the only ones with their regenerative braking de-isolated if that's what you mean.

 

[gmaguire]

What interference? The 0s and 1s are the only ones with their regenerative braking de-isolated if that's what you mean.

I’ve seen it mentioned on this forum a few times. Apparently networkers emit electrical noise and the signalling system had to be immunised.

 

[59CosG95]

I’ve seen it mentioned on this forum a few times. Apparently networkers emit electrical noise and the signalling system had to be immunised.

All stock with electric motors emits electrical noise; however, stock with AC drive (particularly ones with GTO inverters) are much "messier" in terms of harmonic interference (the official term for electrical noise) than DC motors or AC motors with IGBT inverters, particularly with regard to regenerative braking.
IGBT ones aren't anywhere near as noisy (plus are more efficient), and that's why they're preferred nowadays.

465250 on today's move (28/01/22) -not 243 as previously thought.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 01/02 1254 Worksop - Ely Caped
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-01/detailed

STP 02/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465243
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-02/detailed

STP 03/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465248
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-03/detailed

STP 04/02 1252 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465244
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-04/detailed

STP 07/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57312 465236
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-07/detailed

STP 08/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57312 465246
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-08/detailed

STP 09/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57312 465239
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-09/detailed

 

[59CosG95]

STP 01/02 1254 Worksop - Ely Caped
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-01/detailed

STP 02/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465243
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-02/detailed

STP 03/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465248
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-03/detailed

STP 04/02 1252 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57310 465244
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04957/2022-02-04/detailed

STP 07/02 1254 Worksop - Ely 5Q46 57312 465236
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-07/detailed

STP 08/02 1254 Worksop - Ely
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-08/detailed

STP 09/02 1254 Worksop - Ely
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00151/2022-02-09/detailed

Should leave 241, 242 & 247 still at Worksop with all other /2s at Ely.

 

[MML]

Could 465 trailer cars be used to extend class 165 units in use by GWR and Chiltern?
2 car increased to 3 car.
3 car increased to 4 car.
Extra capacity would be welcome.
And would be environmentally friendly too if measuring emissions per seat.

 

[JonathanH]

Could 465 trailer cars be used to extend class 165 units in use by GWR and Chiltern?
2 car increased to 3 car.
3 car increased to 4 car.
Extra capacity would be welcome.
And would be environmentally friendly too if measuring emissions per seat.

There was a plan which envisaged this but the 165s needed to have a different more powerful transmission installed for it to work. It could well be on the back burner now.

The relevant information is here http://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hydrive-165-project.223818/#post-5411953

Note that class 465 cars are 20m vehicles compared to the 23m of the 165s.

 

[D365]

Could 465 trailer cars be used to extend class 165 units in use by GWR and Chiltern?
2 car increased to 3 car.
3 car increased to 4 car.
Extra capacity would be welcome.
And would be environmentally friendly too if measuring emissions per seat.

The definition of ”could” depends on how many millions of pounds you are prepared to throw at 30 year old vehicles.

 

[brad465]

There are currently 5x 466s at Worksop according to UK Rail Log, are these about as knackered as the 465/2s are believed to be, or could they return to SE service in future? If Networkers do return to the Maidstone East line once 377/5s leave to replace 313s, as appears to be discussed elsewhere, then that line will need 466s to cater for the 6-car platform lengths at some stations on that route, so either they'll have to bring those ones back, or cut back from other routes, where they do seem to be helping form a number of 10-car sets (or in one case recently the example of 2x 466s as part of an 8-car).

 

[AzureOtsu]

This is going to get into crayola territory pretty quick, but if southern needs extra capacity on the west coastway after the 313s get withdrawn, 5 465/2s could lose a trailer to be given to a 466 and make a 3 car fleet of 10 to operate these services. the primative train management system on these trains might allow for reconfiguration. either that or stick 377/3s back on the coast and transfer the Tonbridge line to southeastern.

 

[Class 466]

This is going to get into crayola territory pretty quick, but if southern needs extra capacity on the west coastway after the 313s get withdrawn, 5 465/2s could lose a trailer to be given to a 466 and make a 3 car fleet of 10 to operate these services. the primative train management system on these trains might allow for reconfiguration. either that or stick 377/3s back on the coast and transfer the Tonbridge line to southeastern.

Not gonna happen. Beyond the mechanical issues, 465s have extremely restrictive route clearance. 313s will be replaced by Electrostars eventually.

 

[bramling]

This is going to get into crayola territory pretty quick, but if southern needs extra capacity on the west coastway after the 313s get withdrawn, 5 465/2s could lose a trailer to be given to a 466 and make a 3 car fleet of 10 to operate these services. the primative train management system on these trains might allow for reconfiguration. either that or stick 377/3s back on the coast and transfer the Tonbridge line to southeastern.

If anything happens with the 465/2s it will be some kind of deployment on Southeastern, displacing Electrostars (specifically the remaining 377/5s) elsewhere. I wouldn’t bet too much on it though, the fact that the 465/2s are now essentially cold-stored does give a hint that there isn’t a great future envisaged for them.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Not gonna happen. Beyond the mechanical issues, 465s have extremely restrictive route clearance. 313s will be replaced by Electrostars eventually.

I forgot to mention that the west coastway recently got cleared for the use of networkers (Class 165/166)

 

[brad465]

I forgot to mention that the west coastway recently got cleared for the use of networkers (Class 165/166)

Do Networker Turbos have the same issues that third rail Networkers have regarding signalling system interference? I wouldn't be surprised if the former is less of an issue than for the latter.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Do Networker Turbos have the same issues that third rail Networkers have regarding signalling system interference? I wouldn't be surprised if the former is less of an issue than for the latter.

Indeed 465/2's are first gen three phase and had considerable issues with track circuits when introduced necessitating are vast amount of work. Electrostars used IGBTs and much cleverer algorithms that avoided track circuit interference and whilst 30 years has elapsed Brighton Line resignalling predates even this so potential track circuit interference issues would have to be investigated.

 

[warwickshire]

Thursday 21st July 2022 following move.
0702 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Doncaster wabtec works. Move showing on live rail record and www.realtimetrains.co.uk websites
Few Facebook rumours about a 4652 going to Doncaster Webtec works for evaluation. Also South East trains are supposedly to be getting them back.
Is this true? Also is it not true?
Will it just be used at Doncaster for parts stripping only and by scrap from there. Or will it actually come back with other class 4652 into service with South Eastern Trains. Meaning more moves.
However Doncaster does do 4659 work.
Quite possibly they are returning then?
Anyone else who can please help.
Further information. Would be much appreciated. Thank you.






Rumours on Facebook

 

[Class360/1]

Thursday 21st July 2022 following move.
0702 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Doncaster wabtec works. Move showing on live rail record and www.realtimetrains.co.uk websites
Few Facebook rumours about a 4652 going to Doncaster Webtec works for evaluation. Also South East trains are supposedly to be getting them back.
Is this true? Also is it not true?
Will it just be used at Doncaster for parts stripping only and by scrap from there. Or will it actually come back with other class 4652 into service with South Eastern Trains. Meaning more moves.
However Doncaster does do 4659 work.
Quite possibly they are returning then?
Anyone else who can please help.
Further information. Would be much appreciated. Thank you.






Rumours on Facebook

Believe they will return to service as SET are sending their 377/5’s to SNT

 

[XCTurbostar]

It has been widely known that the 16 stored 465/2s will be returned to allow Southern to gain the 23 377/5s. It is expected that some networkers will end up on more regular non-metro routes to substitute for the net loss in stock at SET, at least, until the 707s are fully transferred.
Tomorrows working: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03104/2022-07-21/detailed

It should be 37884 and two sets but it has yet to be fully confirmed. I believe they are being sent to Wabtec for reactivation since they were stored cold.

 

[brad465]

Presumably it's not just the need to cover the 377/5s departing, but the remaining 707s being delayed, that sees the 465/2s needed back.

 

[warwickshire]

It has been widely known that the 16 stored 465/2s will be returned to allow Southern to gain the 23 377/5s. It is expected that some networkers will end up on more regular non-metro routes to substitute for the net loss in stock at SET, at least, until the 707s are fully transferred.
Tomorrows working: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03104/2022-07-21/detailed

It should be 37884 and two sets but it has yet to be fully confirmed. I believe they are being sent to Wabtec for reactivation since they were stored cold.

Yes 37884 already on site.
However good to see 37884 CEPHEUS the grim reaper for once. Doing something positive and bringing back something into service.
Could it be possible 4659s actually return into service on the Ashford to London services via Maidstone replacing the 3775. But 4652 go on the dartford lines. If 4659 do return to the Ashford and Maidstone they will replace the 3775. Last time around 20 years ago they also featured on the line and replaced the 365. Very sadly now have gone for scrap. However for once glad to see some vintage is returning. Good to see return of the 4652s.

 

[JonathanH]

It has been widely known that the 16 stored 465/2s will be returned to allow Southern to gain the 23 377/5s.

Why does Southern need 23 377/5s when there are only 19 313s to replace and the 313s aren't used that intensively?

Why does Southeastern need 465/2s to replace the 377/5s?

Why can't the issue be addressed by shorter formations on Southeastern, who don't appear to have yet had the fleet reductions seen on SWR and Southern. Have Southeastern had a net lost of any stock post March 2020, given the 707s displaced the 465/2s and handful of 466s out of service?

Surely Southeastern is seeing the same reduction in peak time passenger volume and revenue seen elsewhere.

 

[59CosG95]

Why does Southern need 23 377/5s when there are only 19 313s to replace and the 313s aren't used that intensively?

Why does Southeastern need 465/2s to replace the 377/5s?

Why can't the issue be addressed by shorter formations on Southeastern, who don't appear to have yet had the fleet reductions seen on SWR and Southern. Have Southeastern had a net lost of any stock post March 2020, given the 707s displaced the 465/2s and handful of 466s out of service?

Surely Southeastern is seeing the same reduction in peak time passenger volume and revenue seen elsewhere.

Southern have just lost 46 455s...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Southern have just lost 46 455s...

Indeed but they have reorganised services to allow them to be withdrawn although there are some pinch points which a few more 377's would help alleviate.

 

[brad465]

Indeed but they have reorganised services to allow them to be withdrawn although there are some pinch points which a few more 377's would help alleviate.

Isn't there also a need for more 377s when 313s leave, if that's still happening in the near future?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Isn't there also a need for more 377s when 313s leave, if that's still happening in the near future?

There will be but i was responding to the loss of the 455's

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ashford train crew depot are now re-learning Class 465 traction after the disgustingly short-sighted decision to let them lapse.

The key reason is a 465/9 and a 466/0 being booked traction for the Maidstone - Blackfriars, as well as a few other random services here and there such as Victoria - Gillingham being all Networker and the peak Tunbridge Wells services staying as such.

But yes, expect them to re-appear via Maidstone East. And fast.

465/2s and the remaining 466s will come back to cover this random stuff off.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Ashford train crew depot are now re-learning Class 465 traction after the disgustingly short-sighted decision to let them lapse.

Absolutely agree, such a bad decision to let that lapse.

Are we expecting the first 376 to go for refurbishment soon as well? I'm sure the 465/2s will help cover that.

 

[JonathanH]

Are we expecting the first 376 to go for refurbishment soon as well?

Is a refurbishment of the 376 fleet expected?