Class 60's to Colas

[FQ]

I bet DB Schenker would never have sold them to Wabtec if they knew Colas would later get hold of them! A major competitor.

They didn't sell them to Wabtec...

 

[ExRes]

I bet DB Schenker would never have sold them to Wabtec if they knew Colas would later get hold of them! A major competitor.

Sorry, but I can't see the logic behind that assumption, what would Wabtec have done with them, if it bought them, other than prepare them for a return to the track with a railfreight company other than DB Schenker ?

 

[Beveridges]

There's never been any !

3100bhp in 60s .

Really ?

They perform like they've got 3300hp. 58s are rated at that power and a 60 is not inferior to those in any way. A 60 has even hauled trains at 75mph its just the computer now restricts them to 60mph.

 

[455driver]

Horsepower is only a part of it, modern electronics are a big part of it.

 

[Beveridges]

With the 66 being far more modern than the 60 (and having 100hp more) why were they not able to make any advance in haulage capabilities ? What happened instead was a backwards step, even with the slower 66/6's. The 66 was cheaper so maybe it is just much lower spec.

 

[455driver]

A 66 isnt modern though, there is some quite old technology in there.

66s are longer geared than a 60 so have less pulling power but will do a higher speed etc, we have done all this before, quite recently!

 

[Beveridges]

66/6's aren't faster though & the fact that 60's have reached 75mph in the past puts the 'gearing' claims asside

 

[RichmondCommu]

66/6's aren't faster though & the fact that 60's have reached 75mph in the past puts the 'gearing' claims asside

Do you have any proof of this?

 

[455driver]

66/6's aren't faster though & the fact that 60's have reached 75mph in the past puts the 'gearing' claims asside

I have had a 455 up to oops mph but it doesnt mean it will do it every day without problems, A high powered loco running light will very easily exceed its maximum speed but doing it all the time wont do the motors any good.
A loco should be able to reach its top speed pulling a decent sized train behind it.

Here is a natty idea, instead of just posting that we are wrong why dont you post some info which actually answers the question being asked!

 

[#1 driver]

What a load of rubbish !
60s are geared for 60 and will loose all power at 63 .
The only way to get above that is down a steep hill and you then run the very real risk of having your traction motors explode !
And that's gonna look good come QTron download time !!!

 

[455driver]

Do you have any proof of this?

The man down the pub told him, and he got the information at the end of platform 3!

 

[Jamesb1974]

60s are geared for 60 and will loose all power at 63 .

Absolutely correct. Claims that a 60 has reached 75mph are b*llox.

I will check my class 60 driver's manual when I get in work, but I am pretty certain they will also dump the emergency brake not much further on past 63mph.

A 66 will lose power at around 78mph and dump the emergency brake at around 79-80mph. (I will double check those figures tomorrow, but they are roughly around that).

With the 66 being far more modern than the 60

Again, b*llox. The Class 66 is OLD technology. The electronics on a 66 live in the back wall of number 1 cab and they live in two small cabinets. In the clean air and engine compartments, its lots of pipes, valves and wiring conduits. Very much traditional technology.

The only reason that 66's are so prevalent on today's railway is that they are so basic and can withstand being thrashed day in day out.

On the other hand, a Class 60 is like a Nuclear sub. The Clean air compartment has masses of Electronics in numerous sealed cubicles, LED fault indication panels, HUGE amounts of wiring looms and is very tight space wise. Indeed, an idea of how much more technologically advanced a 60 is compared to a 66 is that if you don't close the door between the entrance vestibule and the clean air compartment, the electronics throw a fit and the loco goes into a low power fault setting.

Jim

 

[#1 driver]

A 66 will lose power at around 78mph and dump the emergency brake at around 79-80mph.

yeah , also when the loco thinks it's going that fast .
I've had that a bunch of times accelerating hard over wet points ( 30ish )

 

[RichmondCommu]

The man down the pub told him, and he got the information at the end of platform 3!

LOL! Literally LOL! You can always rely on 455driver for those!

 

[455driver]

LOL! Literally LOL! You can always rely on 455driver for those!

I'm here all week!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Well this has been a fascinating thread. Never knew 60s were so advanced. Given the amount of electronics I am impressed that they are able to return them to service after so long in storage. Usually it is the more mechanical units that are easier to restore.

 

[zn1]

do we all not remember how long it took for the 60's to bed in? their home depots took a while to get used to them, personally i think the squadron has been badly treated as were the 58's which worked with no real problems.

i can see why ed burkhardt bought them..as he had experience of the loco type in the USA, and he needed something that worked straight off the boat and into traffic..so he got the 66, a lower powered version of the 59, i think it was a mistake - he should have gone for the higher spec with 59. saying that its a success breed, several squadrons, and more being procured...even if they drivers dislike the hot end..

experience had shown globally that Britishbuilt locos needed extensive work to get them working to spec on british steelwork.

Hence yeomans bought the 59 with the guaranteed availability - a decision they have never regretted..

as the wizened have already said - the 60 was and is a fairly advanced locomotive design, they have to be loved by their depot staff and crews, once they feel loved they will perform....

personally - it will be good to see more of the lads working again..

 

[Beveridges]

The man down the pub told him, and he got the information at the end of platform 3!

How original! I've never heard that one before!

During the Railfreight petroleum celebration day in the 1990's, 60's reached 75mph+ on charter traffic! Hundreds of bashers witnessed this unusual event. Maybe they can't now because the computer now restricts them to 60mph. There was even reports on the WANX forum of the 59/2's reaching 75mph on tests as well!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well this has been a fascinating thread. Never knew 60s were so advanced. Given the amount of electronics I am impressed that they are able to return them to service after so long in storage. Usually it is the more mechanical units that are easier to restore.

I still have my doubts that Colas will win enough work for them all. I know that they are a growing company but they will have to grow at least three times their current size to properly use their future fleet of 37s, 56s, 60s, 66s & 70s. A few quick TOPS report suggests that even their current fleet is very much under-used, with only about a third of their locos actually working trains at any one time. This compares to GBRF & FHH who have at least two thirds of their locos working at any one time.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nothing wrong with having a fleet planning for growth in the long term. Rather than losing work as your fleet is too small and you are unable to meet demand.

 

[Oswyntail]

... I know that they are a growing company but they will have to grow at least three times their current size to properly use their future fleet of 37s, 56s, 60s, 66s & 70s. A few quick TOPS report suggests that even their current fleet is very much under-used, with only about a third of their locos actually working trains at any one time. This compares to GBRF & FHH who have at least two thirds of their locos working at any one time.

Nothing wrong with having a fleet planning for growth in the long term. Rather than losing work as your fleet is too small and you are unable to meet demand.

There has to be a balance between flexibility, availability and capital demands. Unless they are idiots, the Colas management will have some pretty strong indication that work is coming their way. Of course, there will always be a little optimism built in to the plan, but not too much The one third of GbRf not working will be a predictable(ish) number on maintenance plus allowance for flexibility; in terms of actual numbers of locos, those requirements might well be at the same level for a small fleet like Colas.

 

[ExRes]

I think YorkshireBear is dead on with his words

"...... fleet planning for growth in the long term"

These 60s are not going to be in working order for some time to come, so in many ways the present Colas workload means nothing at all. I would reckon that Colas management have looked pretty hard into what work is or will be available for their extremely expensive 70s so I can't see the purchase of 60s as being done without great thought, if it has been done without proper deliberation I forecast some high level redundancies at Colas, and that's without polishing my crystal ball .....

 

[daccer]

There must be an element of future proofing going on with the smaller FOC's with rolling stock provision. NR's NDS programme will provide some work but the value of the overall contract will not justify so many new locos.

The freight market is growing but the growth seems to be in markets that will be hard to penetrate such as intermodal (DBS seem to have London Gateway in their pocket) and Biomass which Gbrf and DBS have seemingly tied up.

 

[junglejames]

How original! I've never heard that one before!

During the Railfreight petroleum celebration day in the 1990's, 60's reached 75mph+ on charter traffic! Hundreds of bashers witnessed this unusual event. Maybe they can't now because the computer now restricts them to 60mph. There was even reports on the WANX forum of the 59/2's reaching 75mph on tests as well!

I think it depends what railman you speak to, as to what answer you get. However, I have heard from more than one person who works with them, that 60s are geared for 75mph. They will haul all but the heaviest loads at up to this speed (they dont have the power to reach this speed with the heaviest loads) However they are, and always have been, restricted electronically to 60mph. Hence why everywhere you look, they are down as 60mph locos. The drivers manuals probably dont mention 75, because they have never been passed to do this.
Whether constant 75mph running will be any good for the motors, that hasnt been answered. Perhaps that is whats restricting them. Gearing wise though, I have heard more than once they are geared for 75. Apparently during the recent overhaul, DB did look at the possibility of increasing the speed up to 75mph. Nothing has come of that though.

As to why 66s wont pick up the loads that a 60 will. Well apart from whats already been mentioned, the 66s have poor wheel slip control compared to the 60 (60s have a much more advanced design). Ive also heard that you'll be lucky to get the quoted horsepower out of them. So in reality the horsepower is probably very similar to a 60.
Lastly, as someone seems to have infered on here. I believe I saw that the 66s are geared for 85mph. Restricted to 75, but geared for 85. Hence the longer gearing means they wont pick up what a 60 will.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On tests, units will be tested at (IIRC) the certified max. speed +10%, so on the assumption that freight locos have to meet that same benchmark that would explain perhaps why the gearing is for a higher speed than might be expected.

 

[37671]

Might be to do with the fact that colas has won one of the biggest freight contracts and the need for locos has increased.

 

[TB93]

Which contract is that?

 

[ExRes]

Just out of interest, has there been ANY official confirmation that Colas has bought these 60s ? It would seem that the WNXX oracle is the only basis for this story as yet

The Colas site has no mention of any purchase or future use while the Network Rail NSPS contract is clearly stated by Colas to be satisfied by the 70s

I'm not saying that the story is false but WNXX are already a week ahead of everyone else with this news, including the alleged sellers/buyers, so is this insider knowledge or pure guesswork ?

 

[SGS]

It's been reported elsewhere that 60s 002/021/026/047/056/076/085/087/095/096 are now in the COLS pool on TOPS.

 

[455driver]

Might be to do with the fact that colas has won one of the biggest freight contracts and the need for locos has increased.

Really?
What contract is that then?

 

[37671]

Really?
What contract is that then?

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