Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[tomuk]

Exactly so. I wonder if the realisation of the problem has started to reach the walls of Paris yet? The 701 saga inherited from Bombardier certainly isn't doing Alstom's reputation in the UK any good either, and those of you who remember Alstom's poor reputation at the turn of the millennium will remember the steep climb it's taken them to regain any form of credible reputation in the UK Rolling Stock market again.

Alstom haven't regained any reputation they haven't won any new orders in the UK for years. What was their last order? Some extra pendolinos or extra tube stock?

 

[DanNCL]

Alstom haven't regained any reputation they haven't won any new orders in the UK for years. What was their last order? Some extra pendolinos or extra tube stock?

Trams for Nottingham was Alstom’s most recent UK order (pre HS2 of course), and the trams in question were delivered on time and are reliable.

 

[tomuk]

Trams for Nottingham was Alstom’s most recent UK order (pre HS2 of course), and the trams in question were delivered on time and are reliable.

Technically Alstom haven't won the HS2 contract. The Bombardier and Hitachi joint venture did with a Zefiro based train.

 

[Mike Machin]

I often witness these shambolic units trundling aimlessly about when I am in and around the Eastleigh area, and I feel the customers - the leasing company plus SWR and the DfT have been more than patient, and it’s time to call it a day and ask for their (our) money back.
Usually in business there would be enormous penalty payments to pay if equipment is delivered late or is not fit for purpose. Luckily, modern manufacturing allows for items to be readily recycled, so perhaps it’s time for a dismantling and recycling programme to take place, at Alstom’s expense, with a full refund to the leasing company/finance company and the DfT/SWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I often witness these shambolic units trundling aimlessly about when I am in and around the Eastleigh area, and I feel the customers - the leasing company plus SWR and the DfT have been more than patient, and it’s time to call it a day and ask for their (our) money back.
Usually in business there would be enormous penalty payments to pay if equipment is delivered late or is not fit for purpose. Luckily, modern manufacturing allows for items to be readily recycled, so perhaps it’s time for a dismantling and recycling programme to take place, at Alstom’s expense, with a full refund to the leasing company/finance company and the DfT/SWR.

I’m going to reply to this in the speculative thread about ditching the 701s in case we go off topic, look out for my reply there

How many 701s are built now? I passed one at Southampton Central while on my Cardiff bound 158 on Friday and had a good look inside from my train next to it, they look fantastic inside, very modern and the grey walls make it far smarter and less clinical than the whitewashed 707s.

 

[DanNCL]

I often witness these shambolic units trundling aimlessly about when I am in and around the Eastleigh area, and I feel the customers - the leasing company plus SWR and the DfT have been more than patient, and it’s time to call it a day and ask for their (our) money back.
Usually in business there would be enormous penalty payments to pay if equipment is delivered late or is not fit for purpose. Luckily, modern manufacturing allows for items to be readily recycled, so perhaps it’s time for a dismantling and recycling programme to take place, at Alstom’s expense, with a full refund to the leasing company/finance company and the DfT/SWR.

Of course though there has to be a carriage preserved, as an example of how *not* to build a train

I’m going to reply to this in the speculative thread about ditching the 701s in case we go off topic, look out for my reply there

How many 701s are built now? I passed one at Southampton Central while on my Cardiff bound 158 on Friday and had a good look inside from my train next to it, they look fantastic inside, very modern and the grey walls make it far smarter and less clinical than the whitewashed 707s.

I believe around half of them. In terms of any potential order cancellation that is irrelevant - ÖBB’s Talent 3 order wasn’t cancelled until all of the units for that contract had been built, and I believe the Fyra fleet was the same too.

 

[43096]

Alstom haven't regained any reputation they haven't won any new orders in the UK for years. What was their last order? Some extra pendolinos or extra tube stock?

Alstom haven’t won a competitive tender for new main line stock in the UK since they floated on the Paris stock market and changed their name from GEC-Alsthom to Alstom. That was in 1999.

 

[nlogax]

Astonishing. This makes the intro of 442s to NSE look like a clockwork, fault-free military drill.

 

[Goldfish62]

Astonishing. This makes the intro of 442s to NSE look like a clockwork, fault-free military drill.

And countless other trains. I remember the 458 fiasco, but that seems smooth in comparison.

 

[nlogax]

And countless other trains. I remember the 458 fiasco, but that seems smooth in comparison.

Don't think I was living in the UK at the time so that one passed me by, but yes indeed. With the exception of the APT does this get near the top of the 'least successful stock introduction' league if such a thing exists?

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't think I was living in the UK at the time so that one passed me by, but yes indeed. With the exception of the APT does this get near the top of the 'least successful stock introduction' league if such a thing exists?

It certainly seems to be going that way. Probably worse than the APT as they were prototype trains and build of production trains never started.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I often witness these shambolic units trundling aimlessly about when I am in and around the Eastleigh area, and I feel the customers - the leasing company plus SWR and the DfT have been more than patient, and it’s time to call it a day and ask for their (our) money back.
Usually in business there would be enormous penalty payments to pay if equipment is delivered late or is not fit for purpose. Luckily, modern manufacturing allows for items to be readily recycled, so perhaps it’s time for a dismantling and recycling programme to take place, at Alstom’s expense, with a full refund to the leasing company/finance company and the DfT/SWR.

Rock Rail South Western Ltd who own the trains reported the following in their reports and accounts for year ending 31/12/21:

received £49.8m in 2020 from Bombardier in liquidated damages and £4m in 2019.

paid a total of £162m in stage payments having paid £190m since contract award and they were liable for another £740m until all units delivered and accepted.

So they've recovered 14% of the capital cost incurred so far although i suspect the Liquidated Damages will be capped at no more than 10% of contract value and maybe less than that.

Another interesting fact from this report is trains only have a lease till Aug 2024 and the annual lease charge is c£34m for the full fleet.

There next report and accounts for 2021 may become available in May 22 based on previous years so see what they have to say then.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thing is GA are busily putting a new 720 into traffic every day and the 710's are plying there trade on LO without too many dramas so what is it about the 701's that leaves them sidelined? There clearly not fundamentally unsafe otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in traffic and at full line speed. Its about time both sides came clean and give a full account of what the underlying issues are what is being done about it.

I think the software issues are at the core of this. I do not think Bombardiers software development team(s) were up to the job and have too many different versions (for each class) to cope with.

However I also think the 701s have been a lower priority than 710s and 720s as the unions accepted the 710s and 720s a long while ago. Plus Covid has made things harder for the 701 development to keep going and catch up. If i were Bombardier/Alstom I would prioritise the 710s and 720s.

I do not think the overambitious cab design/size of the 701s has yet been reconciled with the staff and unions expectations. There seem to be some quite unrealistic things about the 701 cab that were Bombardiers solution to the demands of the customer and the customers staff are not accepting these.

 

[fgwrich]

I think the software issues are at the core of this. I do not think Bombardiers software development team(s) were up to the job and have too many different versions (for each class) to cope with.

However I also think the 701s have been a lower priority than 710s and 720s as the unions accepted the 710s and 720s a long while ago. Plus Covid has made things harder for the 701 development to keep going and catch up. If i were Bombardier/Alstom I would prioritise the 710s and 720s.

I do not think the overambitious cab design/size of the 701s has yet been reconciled with the staff and unions expectations. There seem to be some quite unrealistic things about the 701 cab that were Bombardiers solution to the demands of the customer and the customers staff are not accepting these.

I'm still puzzled by this being a software issue though - The London Overground units are either duel voltage or AC only, so surely the duel voltage units should / would have a more complex software set up than a single voltage unit? Unless it has something to do with the additional equipment like ADSO etc?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think the software issues are at the core of this. I do not think Bombardiers software development team(s) were up to the job and have too many different versions (for each class) to cope with.

However I also think the 701s have been a lower priority than 710s and 720s as the unions accepted the 710s and 720s a long while ago. Plus Covid has made things harder for the 701 development to keep going and catch up. If i were Bombardier/Alstom I would prioritise the 710s and 720s.

I do not think the overambitious cab design/size of the 701s has yet been reconciled with the staff and unions expectations. There seem to be some quite unrealistic things about the 701 cab that were Bombardiers solution to the demands of the customer and the customers staff are not accepting these.

The core software that controls traction, braking, interface to AWS/TPWS/GSMR has to be bog standard and must all be working correctly otherwise the units wouldn't be certified to even do mileage accumulation. Even door controls, lighting and other systems collecting data ought to be standard software drop this is the whole point of modern trains standard software that has configuration options. It was a different cab layout that seemed to be the reported issue but basically has to have same controls and interfaces that any Aventra has but may have needed kit in different places and changes to wiring looms but not software. What set the 701s apart I believe was ABDO automatic braking door opening but maybe that is already used elsewhere ie 345's so even thats not new?

Anyhow be great to get Alstom and SWR to Transport Select Committee and perhaps they can elicit the true facts.

 

[Roast Veg]

I'm still puzzled by this being a software issue though - The London Overground units are either duel voltage or AC only, so surely the duel voltage units should / would have a more complex software set up than a single voltage unit? Unless it has something to do with the additional equipment like ADSO etc?

A bad software development team will spend a lot of time writing new code to do what is ultimately the same as the old.

 

[southern442]

And countless other trains. I remember the 458 fiasco, but that seems smooth in comparison.

Although we must remember that they suffered from quite severe problems a good 5 or 6 years into their introduction into service; let's hope that in 5 years time we will have forgotten about their troubled introduction and will be lauding their reliability (you may say I'm a dreamer...)

 

[PG]

Rock Rail South Western Ltd who own the trains reported the following in their reports and accounts for year ending 31/12/21:

received £49.8m in 2020 from Bombardier in liquidated damages and £4m in 2019.

paid a total of £162m in stage payments having paid £190m since contract award and they were liable for another £740m until all units delivered and accepted.

So they've recovered 14% of the capital cost incurred so far although i suspect the Liquidated Damages will be capped at no more than 10% of contract value and maybe less than that.

Another interesting fact from this report is trains only have a lease till Aug 2024 and the annual lease charge is c£34m for the full fleet.

There next report and accounts for 2021 may become available in May 22 based on previous years so see what they have to say then.

Thanks for posting. As you say it'll be interesting to see what next years accounts shows...I

Of course though there has to be a carriage preserved, as an example of how *not* to build a train

Maybe even a complete unit or ten! Visit the NRM annex, Worksop where you can see failures rot in the sidings

 

[Peter Sarf]

A bad software development team will spend a lot of time writing new code to do what is ultimately the same as the old.

Oh yes. I was frequently confronted with groups of programs that did almost the same thing. Just a few slight differences. A lot of code had to be altered and tested that was the same in the areas that mattered.

 

[spark001uk]

U 701019 is on ffr today. (5Q51 etc).

Edit: And on 5Q52 it came to a stand between Egham and Virginia Water for 15 mins for some unknown reason. Luckily there weren't any services right behind it.

 

[444045]

U.701031 was moved from Eastleigh Works to Eastleigh Depot today with U.701029 going in the opposite direction.

 

[Meglos]

701031 worked Eastleigh to Waterloo and back last night (5Q53/5Q54). Most surprised when leaving Waterloo on the 2M67 (WAT-CSS) on the Down Slow to see it running parallel at the same time on the Down Fast. I happened to look out the window as we cleared the end of platform 4, and saw a unit in the new SWR colours. In the dark I just assumed it was a Desiro until we got ahead of it, and I could see the shape of the drivers cab!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Eastleigh looked full up with 701's yesterday.

 

[infobleep]

I saw a 701 at Woking on Tuesday evening on platform 2. This was after 20:00. It left heading north.

 

[_toommm_]

I saw a 701 at Woking on Tuesday evening on platform 2. This was after 20:00. It left heading north.

Presumably this pair of paths:

Realtime Trains | 5Q53 1859 Eastleigh to London Waterloo | 11/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q53 1859 departure from Eastleigh to London Waterloo on 11/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q54 2150 London Waterloo to Eastleigh Trsmd | 11/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q54 2150 departure from London Waterloo to Eastleigh Trsmd on 11/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[spark001uk]

Presumably this pair of paths:

Realtime Trains | 5Q53 1859 Eastleigh to London Waterloo | 11/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q53 1859 departure from Eastleigh to London Waterloo on 11/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q54 2150 London Waterloo to Eastleigh Trsmd | 11/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q54 2150 departure from London Waterloo to Eastleigh Trsmd on 11/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Yes, in fact 5Q50/51/52/53/54 is all the same diagram. On Tuesday it was worked by 701019.

 

[rcsn319]

what unit was at waterloo around 2100 on the 14th?

 

[adc82140]

What are they actually doing on these test paths? Are there software fixes being rolled out at the moment? Where are they with the door opening at speed problem now?

 

[Bigfoot]

What are they actually doing on these test paths? Are there software fixes being rolled out at the moment? Where are they with the door opening at speed problem now?

I believe the doors have stopped opening but they still regularly sit down mid test trip with other problems.

 

[Meglos]

what unit was at waterloo around 2100 on the 14th?

See message #3262