Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[43096]

There’s definitely a lot of them at the new Feltham depot. I got a great view from a flight out of Heathrow on Sunday. It’s completely full of 701s.

It isn’t “completely full”. There were five sets in yesterday, with five roads not used. As other stock stables there overnight, there must be space available for those sets.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The only route that is proposed for is beyond Leatherhead to Bookham, which whilst served by metro services is incredibly rural and has low off-peak usage.

There’s nothing in the SWR plan for cutting core metro routes in the travel card zones to 1tph like Southern are doing so to Beckenham etc.

They are planning to halve a number of other services, for example at St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake down to a decidedly non-Metro 2tph.

 

[C96]

They are planning to halve a number of other services, for example at St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake down to a decidedly non-Metro 2tph.

Not part of the previous posts argument about 1tph only.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to stick to class 701 updates please.

New threads can be created to discuss any other topic, such as potential timetable changes or anything else.

 

[ashkeba]

They are the same width, yes - but isn't the issue that they are shorter from front to back?

Yes, so smaller volume of cab air so maybe higher infection risk. I do not know if it will be significant enough to stop training but I do not agree that training restarting on other classes means 701 training certain to start or that SWR will think it worth the increase in risk of drivers off sick yet. 701 are a more different cab design, whether we think that good or not.

 

[Western Sunset]

701006 is still at BM depot. Don't think it's moved a wheel in over a week...

 

[WarrenTManager]

arrange to re-lease 458533/534

8533 is not off lease.

 

[TEW]

Yes, so smaller volume of cab air so maybe higher infection risk. I do not know if it will be significant enough to stop training but I do not agree that training restarting on other classes means 701 training certain to start or that SWR will think it worth the increase in risk of drivers off sick yet. 701 are a more different cab design, whether we think that good or not.

It's basically irrelevant anyway. It is not any form of Covid restrictions or social distancing requirements that's preventing 701 training taking place.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's basically irrelevant anyway. It is not any form of Covid restrictions or social distancing requirements that's preventing 701 training taking place.

Thanks for restoring some sanity to this conversation! I was beginning to think we were in some of Covid time warp!

 

[Invincible]

It's basically irrelevant anyway. It is not any form of Covid restrictions or social distancing requirements that's preventing 701 training taking place.

Train drivers reject £895 million new SWR trains with 'unsafe windscreen wipers'

The train drivers union say the trains were 'when delivered, not fit for purpose'

www.mylondon.news

Is there any truth in this report NR may need to move some signals and some software bugs are still to be sorted.
Guess Alstrom are busy sorting out the Elizabeth line trains?

 

[Goldfish62]

Train drivers reject £895 million new SWR trains with 'unsafe windscreen wipers'

The train drivers union say the trains were 'when delivered, not fit for purpose'

www.mylondon.news

Is there any truth in this report NR may need to move some signals and some software bugs are still to be sorted.
Guess Alstrom are busy sorting out the Elizabeth line trains?

That's a pretty old article.

 

[Bayum]

Seeing as this is 121 pages long, is anyone able to succinctly summarise the remaining issues with the 701s thus far?

 

[43102EMR]

Seeing as this is 121 pages long, is anyone able to succinctly summarise the remaining issues with the 701s thus far?

ASLEF refuse to accept them, software faults, cab defects… the list goes on.

 

[fgwrich]

ASLEF refuse to accept them, software faults, cab defects… the list goes on.

Build Quality. The regular theme for Derby built stock…

 

[Snow1964]

Seeing as this is 121 pages long, is anyone able to succinctly summarise the remaining issues with the 701s thus far?

Basically late delivery, so training didn’t happen (a third of them were supposed to be in service by March 2020 pre covid)

Shoddy build quality, both how they were screwed together, and software that was riddled with faults.

A cab design with windows that were not big enough to see every signal easily, so caused a stroppy union to find multiple other faults and reject the cab design

A manufacturer that didn’t seem to have any staff to sort any build faults promptly

 

[Goldfish62]

Basically late delivery, so training didn’t happen (a third of them were supposed to be in service by March 2020 pre covid)

Shoddy build quality, both how they were screwed together, and software that was riddled with faults.

A cab design with windows that were not big enough to see every signal easily, so caused a stroppy union to find multiple other faults and reject the cab design

A manufacturer that didn’t seem to have any staff to sort any build faults promptly

The two recent magazine articles highlighted in some detail the mess that Alstom found when they took over the factory. From the sound of it it's a miracle that other Aventras actually entered service without too much delay.

 

[theking]

The windscreen issue is completely laughable.

I'd understand if it was the problem scotrail had with double aspects because of the curvature but for them to say they can't see signals because of a wiper blade when they drive gangway stock is ridiculous.

 

[Bayum]

The two recent magazine articles highlighted in some detail the mess that Alstom found when they took over the factory. From the sound of it it's a miracle that other Aventras actually entered service without too much delay.

Which articles are these?

 

[Goldfish62]

Which articles are these?

One each in Modern Railways and Today's Railways UK. Very interesting and very detailed. They were about Alstom rather than the 701s specifically.

 

[fgwrich]

The two recent magazine articles highlighted in some detail the mess that Alstom found when they took over the factory. From the sound of it it's a miracle that other Aventras actually entered service without too much delay.

It really does make you wonder how Bombardier ran the place (almost into the ground) and how they still managed to pick up orders, despite everything behind the scenes being not exactly as they should be. It also makes you wonder how they could promise so much to the TOCs with the Aventra fleets, despite at the time, having barely delivered one (the Crossrail 345s at the time of the mass GA / C2C / WMT / SWR orders).

One thing I've noted on the recent deliveries is that each unit has had tamper proof type stickers over the doors to stop them opening during transit. Which, potentially also says that they still haven't been able to address the door opening issue...

 

[800001]

The thing that baffles me is, if the design of the cab is so bad that certain signals can not be seen due to the position of the windscreen wiper, how come they are ‘safe’ for which ever drivers are doing the current mileage accumulation and fault free testing?

 

[Energy]

One thing I've noted on the recent deliveries is that each unit has had tamper proof type stickers over the doors to stop them opening during transit.

I doubt they are to stop them opening, they discourage thieves or might be to prove that the unit hasn't been opened by whoever has been contracted to move the unit etc.

 

[the sniper]

The thing that baffles me is, if the design of the cab is so bad that certain signals can not be seen due to the position of the windscreen wiper, how come they are ‘safe’ for which ever drivers are doing the current mileage accumulation and fault free testing?

There have been bits falling off other types of unit doing mileage accumulation which some have been willing to run with, some doing it clearly aren't too discerning.

 

[fgwrich]

I doubt they are to stop them opening, they discourage thieves or might be to prove that the unit hasn't been opened by whoever has been contracted to move the unit etc.

There have been bits falling off other types of unit doing mileage accumulation which some have been willing to run with, some doing it clearly aren't too discerning.

Not only have bits been falling off, but the doors have been opening on both delivery and test runs. Those stickers are noticeable (bright blue) in not being on the early runs (I've even had a chance to look over one of the early units and they weren't there). I've even seen one of the cab doors come off it's runners at Basingstoke - yes, the build quality seems to be that poor.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone know why these Aventras have a so much worse build quality compared to the GA and Crossrail ones?

Though both those fleets were massively delayed too!

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone know why these Aventras have a so much worse build quality compared to the GA and Crossrail ones?

Though both those fleets were massively delayed too!

They are shorter bodywork, so were probably assembled on a separate production line, maybe they used the old crossrail assembly jigs and they didn’t really fit the smaller bodyshells (just a wild guess) so bit weren‘t fitted together very accurately

 

[dgl]

It really does make you wonder how Bombardier ran the place (almost into the ground) and how they still managed to pick up orders, despite everything behind the scenes being not exactly as they should be. It also makes you wonder how they could promise so much to the TOCs with the Aventra fleets, despite at the time, having barely delivered one (the Crossrail 345s at the time of the mass GA / C2C / WMT / SWR orders).

I'm guessing the only rear reason why they got orders was because they are assembled in Britain.
Also after Bombadier lost out to Siemens on the Thameslink order there seemed to be a lot of banging on about how the order had gone to a foreigner and that Derby might close/get rid of a lot of staff Etc.
Also one of the big reasons Bombadier got the Crossrail contract was because Siemens pulled out as they did not have the capacity free to build any more trains at that point in time.

With Siemens opening an assembly facility in Goole, initially for the new tube stock, Derby will no longer be able to crow about "made in Britain" and I would be looking carefully at Derby's future once all the current orders have been fufilled, though thatmay no be for a while yet!

 

[spark001uk]

What would be the legal stance on this, anyone know? I would have thought such a monumental co**-up would leave swr in a good position to take action? Or has not enough gone wrong yet?

 

[fgwrich]

Does anyone know why these Aventras have a so much worse build quality compared to the GA and Crossrail ones?

Though both those fleets were massively delayed too!

They are shorter bodywork, so were probably assembled on a separate production line, maybe they used the old crossrail assembly jigs and they didn’t really fit the smaller bodyshells (just a wild guess) so bit weren‘t fitted together very accurately

I think it's been mentioned somewhere previously in this thread, but I would also in part attribute it to Bombardier promising a lot more than they can realistically deliver - Considering they will have just finished the Crossrail production line before jumping into the London Overground, Greater Anglia, SWR, WMT, LNWR and C2C builds. This would in part explain the part built units being shipped over to Worksop for temporary storage while the production line's play catchup. Of course Covid will have also played it's wretched part with shutdowns / social distancing affecting the production lines as well.

I'm guessing the only rear reason why they got orders was because they are assembled in Britain.
Also after Bombadier lost out to Siemens on the Thameslink order there seemed to be a lot of banging on about how the order had gone to a foreigner and that Derby might close/get rid of a lot of staff Etc.
Also one of the big reasons Bombadier got the Crossrail contract was because Siemens pulled out as they did not have the capacity free to build any more trains at that point in time.

With Siemens opening an assembly facility in Goole, initially for the new tube stock, Derby will no longer be able to crow about "made in Britain" and I would be looking carefully at Derby's future once all the current orders have been fufilled, though thatmay no be for a while yet!

Come to think of it, that could be part of it along with some competitive financing being available from Derby. Particularly with Boris's Built in Britain mantra (Noticeable at TfL while he was Mayor of London, despite the continued let downs by Bombardier management to TfL then {late delivery of 172s, issues on the S Stock requiring returns to Derby, Issues with the 09 stock documented on one of the TV series and the Sub Surface Lines reksignalling}) and conveniently ignoring that the IETs use body shells constructed in Kasado and Pistoia. Of course the Crossrail business led to the unusual situation of Bombardier building the stock, and Siemens providing the signalling.

The one I would have said to watch out for though in this was Hitachi. Until they decided to provide us with a... cracking fleet of insanely expensive units which may or may not outlive their design life. Alstom are seemingly aware of the mess they've inherited and at least attempting to repair it. But they have a long and steep road to climb.

As for Siemens, I can't work out why they've fallen largely out of favour, missing out on some pretty substantial franchise orders. They may be expensive, but at least the Siemens built fleets seem to work.

What would be the legal stance on this, anyone know? I would have thought such a monumental co**-up would leave swr in a good position to take action? Or has not enough gone wrong yet?

I'm surprised legal action hasn't become public yet - this year's Rock Rail accounts could well provide some interesting results, as it's unlikely they'll be paying for any of them yet. However, I'm fairly confident SWR / Rock Rail will be giving Alstom a (to quote Father Ted) kick up the @rse. The production and deliveries don't appear to have stopped yet, so I don't think we've reached a stage whereby the fleet could be rejected, yet.

 

[PG]

The one I would have said to watch out for though in this was Hitachi. Until they decided to provide us with a... cracking fleet of insanely expensive units which may or may not outlive their design life.

with apologies for going O/T but you've cracked it... IET=Insanely Expensive Train