Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[D365]

Which seems to be adding fire to the argument then that Bombardier and Siemens are looking at a merger.

Is that actually true, or is it more the case that First/MTR have not been happy with what they have seen of the Class 707s.

 

[Bungle965]

Is that actually true, or is it more the case that First/MTR have not been happy with what they have seen of the Class 707s.

If you are referring to the merger then there is a dedicated thread on it.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145154
It is however can be like you said that First/MTR were not happy with the current external design of the orders for Crossrail and London Overground and that Bombardier were happy to make changes to the Aventra`s design for a large order.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they be able to make a physical coupling with a 444/450 (no electrical connection) to allow a 444/450 to rescue one (and vice versa)?

 

[D365]

Boy am I looking forward to this! It'll be far better delivered than I could achieve ... although I believe the sentiments will be the same.

swt_passenger has pretty much said all that I was going to say, to be honest:

Except there will be ample spare modern AC ready EMUs such as 360s and 379s displaced from the likes of GA and Heathrow Connect by then which is why it will probably be even less likely than it was in 2014...

Will they be able to make a physical coupling with a 444/450 (no electrical connection) to allow a 444/450 to rescue one (and vice versa)?

Hold up there we've only just heard the announcement!

To be fair, I don't see why the SWR Aventra fleet would not be fitted with Dellners, if they are the same height I would assume it be possible.

 

[hwl]

Is that actually true, or is it more the case that First/MTR have not been happy with what they have seen of the Class 707s.

Better spec (including reliability) and tens of million cheaper than Siemens bid (making it easier to justify more new stock than if they had gone for Siemens).

 

[hwl]

swt_passenger has pretty much said all that I was going to say, to be honest:






Hold up there we've only just heard the announcement!

To be fair, I don't see why the SWR Aventra fleet would not be fitted with Dellners, if they are the same height I would assume it be possible.

Although the Dellner electrical connections are largely the same the older units original Desiro or Electrostar etc.) have analogue PA and the newer units (Aventra, Desiro City or later electrostar) incompatible digital PA.

 

[JonathanH]

The scrap yards will probably struggle at times.

They just stacked scrap engines and carriages on top of each other in the 1980s - perhaps that is the way to go this time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, at first I thought they'd photoshopped a Desiro City into a Bombardier unit. It is interesting to see if this is the final design, how Bombardier seem to be morphing themselves into a Siemens look-a-like. Even those lights look inspired by the Porsche/Siemens MX3000.

No bad thing if it increases the shoddy build quality of most Electrostars (newest ones with the rounded windows excepted, which are up to Siemens standards).

 

[Starmill]

No bad thing if it increases the shoddy build quality of most Electrostars (newest ones with the rounded windows excepted, which are up to Siemens standards).

If you think that you obviously haven't ridden one up the WCML! They clatter and bang through tunnels and past Pendolinos at 125 and shriek and wail and throw you around. A 350 on the same tracks and in the same conditions glides along quietly and smoothly.

 

[edwin_m]

On the question of maximum speed, three phase drives and motors are much more able to sustain torque across the speed range than traditional DC motors, so it becomes less important to tweak the gearing for the best performance at the chosen maximum speed for the route. It may even be that the traction of the 345s is the same configuration as these but they are limited to 90mph for some other reason or simply because the spec didn't ask for anything higher.

They may also be thinking of bouncing morning peak trains back out as fast ECS (and vice versa in the evening) so more trains can do peak direction runs during the same peak. Since the peak direction service dictates the fleet size this would allow them to do more with fewer trains.

Other things being equal a bigger fleet needs more siding and workshop space and if this is available at all in the London area the land would be very expensive. So they may have to do middle-of-day stabling further from London, and perhaps even move heavy maintenance further out as Siemens have done at Northam.

For any of these situations the ability to run at 100mph and therefore use the fast lines without delaying other trains would be very handy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you think that you obviously haven't ridden one up the WCML! They clatter and bang through tunnels and past Pendolinos at 125 and shriek and wail and throw you around. A 350 on the same tracks and in the same conditions glides along quietly and smoothly.

I did yesterday and I do find the newer type to be much better. OK, maybe not quite a Desiro.

The old ones, however, are in the same league as British Leyland for awful build quality.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they have to wait for the construction of the 345 order to be completed or is there a separate construction line?

 

[hwl]

On the question of maximum speed, three phase drives and motors are much more able to sustain torque across the speed range than traditional DC motors, so it becomes less important to tweak the gearing for the best performance at the chosen maximum speed for the route. It may even be that the traction of the 345s is the same configuration as these but they are limited to 90mph for some other reason or simply because the spec didn't ask for anything higher.

Largely agreed but there are still speed related cooling issues with 3 phase drives (See Alstom 458 issues and regearing) as noted in my post on the first page of this thread the Aventras have external traction motor blowers so cooling can be speed independent which is especially useful as the motor efficiency reduces significantly at lower rpm generating comparatively more heat. The external motor blower also allows a bigger (more powerful) traction motor to be fitted on inside frame bogies reducing the number for traction motors by circa 1.5 motors on a 10 car Aventra compared to equivalent DesiroCity (realistically a reduction of 2 motors due to the weight saving less cabling, fewer inverters, fewer gear boxes). 1 less motor bogie then helps Bombardier bid cheaper...

The 345s can achieve significantly over 100mph at max motor rpm with the gearing they have.

 

[hwl]

Will they have to wait for the construction of the 345 order to be completed or is there a separate construction line?

There are realistically circa 4-5 assembly lines in Derby if the "London Underground" Movia ones are repurposed (no Underground stock orders so why not). The build rate will require all of them. The Aventra build rate will increase after the 387s build finish in Autumn.

The CR (345 22m units) and LO (710 20m units) orders will complete first then SW (20m units) with Anglia (24m units) starting a quarter or 2 later and built in parallel to SW for most of the build period.

 

[fairysdad]

Just a little thing based on the Artists' Impression - what do people prefer, the door button on the doors or on the main train body? My preference would be to have them on the train body, means you can open them without having to stand right in the middle of the doors so if there are people getting off the train, you're not in the way. (Seen many occasions where people on the train don't seem to realise that they have to press the button themselves to open the doors...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Prefer them on the door. They are more obvious and you don't have to step aside to open the door if nobody is alighting. If they are it is only polite to step aside anyway, and in that case there's no need for use of the button because the alighting passengers will press it.

 

[Goldfish62]

Possibly Bombardier might prefer ironing board seats by default, but the 345's don't have ironing board style seats so the customer could presumably specify alternatives if it wanted.

Surely it's the customer who decides which seats to use, not the manufacturer. Siemens wanted to use Grammer seats in the 700s, but DfT specified Fainsa. There are plenty of other seats out there, including the British Transcal range.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just a little thing based on the Artists' Impression - what do people prefer, the door button on the doors or on the main train body? My preference would be to have them on the train body, means you can open them without having to stand right in the middle of the doors so if there are people getting off the train, you're not in the way. (Seen many occasions where people on the train don't seem to realise that they have to press the button themselves to open the doors...)

The positioning is largely based on the way the doors open. You couldn't have a door button on the body right next to a pair of plug doors for obvious reasons.

 

[CP165]

As a compromise, you could have door buttons on the outer edge of the door as per 165/166s

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

 

[Mordac]

Just a little thing based on the Artists' Impression - what do people prefer, the door button on the doors or on the main train body? My preference would be to have them on the train body, means you can open them without having to stand right in the middle of the doors so if there are people getting off the train, you're not in the way. (Seen many occasions where people on the train don't seem to realise that they have to press the button themselves to open the doors...)

Definitely on the door. The door buttons on the NIR 3000 units are so far away from the door it's ridiculous, I hope they fix that on the 195s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a compromise, you could have door buttons on the outer edge of the door as per 165/166s

Those are there because they physically push through the door and operate a button that is actually located on the train bodyside, same with 323s.

 

[Mikey C]

There are realistically circa 4-5 assembly lines in Derby if the "London Underground" Movia ones are repurposed (no Underground stock orders so why not). The build rate will require all of them. The Aventra build rate will increase after the 387s build finish in Autumn.

The CR (345 22m units) and LO (710 20m units) orders will complete first then SW (20m units) with Anglia (24m units) starting a quarter or 2 later and built in parallel to SW for most of the build period.

There's quite a gap before any New Tube for London production might start anyway, with the first train not entering service until 2023.

 

[Deepgreen]

No bad thing if it increases the shoddy build quality of most Electrostars (newest ones with the rounded windows excepted, which are up to Siemens standards).

I would prefer to see the shoddiness improved (reduced), rather than increased!

 

[D365]

There's quite a gap before any New Tube for London production might start anyway, with the first train not entering service until 2023.

Not to mention that Bombardier's bid is in conjunction with Hitachi.

 

[FlippyFF]

Is it correct that these Aventras will be delivered as four car units and the fifth car will be sourced from a 707? #455replacement

Simon

 

[Feathers44]

Is it correct that these Aventras will be delivered as four car units and the fifth car will be sourced from a 707? #455replacement

Simon

No, it will come from a 508. That's traditional round our way.

 

[nlogax]

No, it will come from a 508. That's traditional round our way.

Hah, excellent work

 

[Mikey C]

No, it will come from a 508. That's traditional round our way.

No, the 5th car will actually come from a 458

Porterbrook have come up with a canny plan to remove the 5th carriage from the 458s, and turn them into 4 car units...

 

[bgstrowger]

Interesting that First have gone with Bombardier for this order; thought Siemens were usually a shoe-in for their train orders.

Or has the DfT thrown them an almight load of cash to keep the factory at Derby busy?

 

[47802]

Interesting that First have gone with Bombardier for this order; thought Siemens were usually a shoe-in for their train orders.

Or has the DfT thrown them an almight load of cash to keep the factory at Derby busy?

Well given they have recently ordered CAF and Hitachi trains I don't see that follows these days I expect many of the TOC's are going for the best deal they can get for the type of train they want, obviously built in Derby is positive publicity for the franchise. then we have Abellio who have ordered Bombardier, Stadler and Hitachi in recent franchises.