Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[edwin_m]

Siemens previously had a reputation for trains that worked out of the box, or at least closer to that than anyone else with the possible exception of Hitachi. I think the 700s might have done some damage to that. Bombardier's latest deliveries have been relatively trouble-free, although probably too soon to tell for the 345s.

 

[bgstrowger]

Well given they have recently ordered CAF and Hitachi trains I don't see that follows these days I expect many of the TOC's are going for the best deal they can get for the type of train they want, obviously built in Derby is positive publicity for the franchise. then we have Abellio who have ordered Bombardier, Stadler and Hitachi in recent franchises.

Isn't this is the first major order for trains since the EU referendum last year? Hardly a good idea to be ordering trains from Germany I would imagine

 

[RichmondCommu]

Isn't this is the first major order for trains since the EU referendum last year? Hardly a good idea to be ordering trains from Germany I would imagine

Why do you say that?

 

[railfanatic]

I don't see any official figures, but 750 cars over 90 trains seems to work out at:
- 60 x 10-car
- 30 x 5-car

Slightly larger image available here.

You're right!

 

[47802]

Isn't this is the first major order for trains since the EU referendum last year? Hardly a good idea to be ordering trains from Germany I would imagine

Comments from other posters seemed to suggest that CAF were the 1st choice but couldn't deliver in the required timeframe, Bombardier was preferred by the stakeholders, one suspects that CAF offered the cheapest bid.

 

[D365]

Interesting that First have gone with Bombardier for this order; thought Siemens were usually a shoe-in for their train orders.

Or maybe... maybe the Aventra is looking like it's actually a better product than the Desiro City.

 

[dp21]

Isn't this is the first major order for trains since the EU referendum last year? Hardly a good idea to be ordering trains from Germany I would imagine

What about the GA fleet replacement? That was announced after the EU Ref was it not?

 

[dp21]

Or maybe... maybe the Aventra is looking like it's actually a better product than the Desiro City.

I agree; also the fact that the SWT Eng Director and subsequently Managing Director who was formerly a senior Siemens man has departed so that bias may have gone.

I also hear that the Desiro City units are almost too complicated so perhaps the Aventras, as you say, are a bit simpler?

 

[hwl]

I also hear that the Desiro City units are almost too complicated so perhaps the Aventras, as you say, are a bit simpler?

Desiro City and Aventra are about as complicated as each other, the difference is that the previous generation electrostars are more complicated than the Desiros (SDO (hence individual door control rather than unit level etc.), DOO cameras, CSDE,...)) so Siemens had a far bigger step up to make on the computer control and software side than Bombardier (who also happen to have an aviation division that do this rather well).

 

[hwl]

Or maybe... maybe the Aventra is looking like it's actually a better product than the Desiro City.

Substantial better product AND 5-10% cheaper than Desiro City too.

Siemens aren't wining any EMU orders on the continent either including what would have been traditional shoe ins. Bombardier and Stadler winning plenty recently instead.

 

[hwl]

Comments from other posters seemed to suggest that CAF were the 1st choice but couldn't deliver in the required timeframe, Bombardier was preferred by the stakeholders, one suspects that CAF offered the cheapest bid.

CAF weren't a "choice" as only Bombardier and Siemens could meet all the requirements i.e. CAF not short listed.

HH is the most informed on the subject, read what he has said about CAF not being part of the picture very carefully

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I wonder if Siemens might end up retiring the Desiro design and offer their Mireo design instead for future ITTs

 

[F Great Eastern]

Comments from other posters seemed to suggest that CAF were the 1st choice but couldn't deliver in the required timeframe, Bombardier was preferred by the stakeholders, one suspects that CAF offered the cheapest bid.

That was me who made the post. I was laughed out of the thread at the time I made it a few months ago.

CAF were not shortlisted because they could not deliver the spec that was desired in time because of all of the other work that they are dealing with right now.

My source was someone who is very much involved in the rolling stock market and the Mireo whilst not exactly for the UK Market, was aimed at replacing the core Desiro line eventually.

 

[F Great Eastern]

What about the GA fleet replacement? That was announced after the EU Ref was it not?

Indeed and Bombardier won part of that along with Stadler.

Siemens had a legal challenge against that order in the days after that announcement but quickly dropped it, much for the same reasons that First dropped the legal challenge over the GE franchise in 2003.

However DFT are understandably happy at Bombardier winning this award as it allows the government to triumph Brexit etc, so you should bear that in mind.

 

[3141]

However DFT are understandably happy at Bombardier winning this award as it allows the government to triumph Brexit etc, so you should bear that in mind.

Since the order will lead to more jobs in Derby and a degree of job security for the next three years, plus other benefits to the economy of the area, I should think most people should be happy, regardless of any Brexit considerations.

 

[3141]

I agree; also the fact that the SWT Eng Director and subsequently Managing Director who was formerly a senior Siemens man has departed so that bias may have gone.

I don't quite follow that: Christian Roth worked for Stagecoach SWT, but this new order is placed by First/MTR.

 

[3141]

Interesting that First have gone with Bombardier for this order; thought Siemens were usually a shoe-in for their train orders.?

They ordered from Siemens at First Great Eastern and First Transpennine Express. FGE was ages ago, TPE was 2004.

Since then 5 x 360s for Heathrow Connect and 10 x 350s for TPE, which were part of 20 as a follow-on option from London Midland's 350s.

I think that for their West Coast bid in 2012 they were intending to order more pendolinos, not from Siemens.

Doesn't suggest any shoe-in.

Or has the DfT thrown them an almight load of cash to keep the factory at Derby busy?

Sounds like a conspiracy theorist in overdrive!

 

[Wivenswold]

If taxpayer's money is being used via the backdoor to support the local economy in Derby, then that's a good thing.

 

[delticdave]

I would prefer to see the shoddiness improved (reduced), rather than increased!

Shoddiness?

I live in 357 land & I've never thought that they were "shoddy".

 

[F Great Eastern]

If taxpayer's money is being used via the backdoor to support the local economy in Derby, then that's a good thing.

The trouble is that if it happens too much it will result in a lowering of standard, the very occasional order won't make a huge difference, but if a company knows that it is a shoe-in for each order then there is less of an incentive to deliver a quality and innovative product and at the end of the day the customers lose out.

When you have this kind of back door funding you have to be very careful to not reward mediocrity which ends with standards being driven down, prices being driven up and the market standing still because keeping people in jobs becomes more important than innovation, product development and providing a quality product.

Of course it's great that Bombardier are delivering better products than they used to, but it's because that following a lull of orders they had to adapt and improve standards in a competitive rolling stock market or ultimately many people would be out of a job in Derby. If you remove the competitive rolling stock market then there is no incentive to improve and sustain standards.

 

[Olaf]

All recent Bombardier EMUs have been either 100 mph or even 110 mph. It'll be standardisation of traction packages, nothing to see here.

It's the Crossrail units that are the oddballs, they'll be 90 mph on the GW reliefs, when 100 may have been a better choice with hindsight.

But I suggest that as the fleet is sized just to replace the 455s, 456s, 458s, and 707s roughly one for one why would they ever need to be used away from the suburban area outside of major perturbation?

"Future" (if funding can be found) southern link to Heathrow and onwards to Reading (though I expect that might be a different operator if it went ahead, and a new dedicated set of units to boot)?

 

[Olaf]

Direct extract from the First Group press release:

The £895m fleet of “AVENTRA” trains...

Does anyone know the origin of the name? Is it just a marketing linguistic abomination?

 

[Olaf]

Just a little thing based on the Artists' Impression - what do people prefer, the door button on the doors or on the main train body? My preference would be to have them on the train body, means you can open them without having to stand right in the middle of the doors so if there are people getting off the train, you're not in the way. (Seen many occasions where people on the train don't seem to realise that they have to press the button themselves to open the doors...)

How about on an iPhone app - that way people will not need to look up at all.

 

[Olaf]

Interesting that First have gone with Bombardier for this order; thought Siemens were usually a shoe-in for their train orders.

Or has the DfT thrown them an almight load of cash to keep the factory at Derby busy?

My understanding was that the lower cost of the Bombardier package was a critical factor in the pricing of the bid.

 

[Olaf]

Substantial better product AND 5-10% cheaper than Desiro City too.

Siemens aren't wining any EMU orders on the continent either including what would have been traditional shoe ins. Bombardier and Stadler winning plenty recently instead.

Is there any publicly available evidence - e..g comparison documents or numbers?

My impression is that the Desiro (not the City) is a better product than the Electrostar, but I have no knowledge of the newer product families.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will it be just links who sign red routes only who will sign them?

 

[dp21]

I don't quite follow that: Christian Roth worked for Stagecoach SWT, but this new order is placed by First/MTR.

My point is just that he was perhaps Siemens-biased which is why SWT liked to order from them but as you say, First/MTR don't have that.

I appreciate it was a poorly made point, sorry but hopefully you catch my drift.

 

[bgstrowger]

They ordered from Siemens at First Great Eastern and First Transpennine Express. FGE was ages ago, TPE was 2004.

Since then 5 x 360s for Heathrow Connect and 10 x 350s for TPE, which were part of 20 as a follow-on option from London Midland's 350s.

I think that for their West Coast bid in 2012 they were intending to order more pendolinos, not from Siemens.

Doesn't suggest any shoe-in.



Sounds like a conspiracy theorist in overdrive!

Maybe I'm just getting a bit politically cynical in my old age

 

[swt_passenger]

"Future" (if funding can be found) southern link to Heathrow and onwards to Reading (though I expect that might be a different operator if it went ahead, and a new dedicated set of units to boot)?

It would have to be. The First Group order is effectively a one for one replacement for stock that is already fully tied up with existing routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will it be just links who sign red routes only who will sign them?

Are there any such links? I thought at Waterloo and London area depots links were allocated by route, and they drive whatever stock is used on those routes.

Surely anyone who currently drives the four classes being replaced will drive Aventras. It's a pretty open question...