Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m astonished that SWR have not taken a leaf out of ÖBB’s book and terminated the contract for the ex-Bombardier trains due to non-delivery and gone to Siemens instead.

As a local to SWR (like I know you are yourself) I’m grateful for them not doing so, as this would no doubt mean at least another three years before the knackered 455s finally begin to be replaced, and the 707s really will have to go to SE at some point. If the 701s are not in service by three years I will retract this statement humbly with good will, but I don’t think it’ll seriously be three more years.

Those 350/2s which WMR don't want could presumably be modded to 350/1 or 450 capability for running on 750V DC. I imagine Alstom must be near to the end of class 730 build now, so it is commissioning them and getting them into service - within a year ?.

And this is what, the six-hundred-and-forty-eighth time this same (speculative) idea has now raised its head? It must be the most commonly suggested idea on the forum, that and unfeasible Meridians on Liverpool Norwich.

 

[abn444]

I’m astonished that SWR have not taken a leaf out of ÖBB’s book and terminated the contract for the ex-Bombardier trains due to non-delivery and gone to Siemens instead.

I can't see that being a particularly good idea. Even if the DfT agree (which I very much doubt given their penny pinching attitude at the moment) it'd still take years for the new trains to arrive from Siemens, and let's not forget, whilst not as bad as this, the Siemens 707s weren't exactly on time either (I think they didn't even manage one full day in service with SWT). I'd be very surprised if the 701s take that long.

Those 350/2s which WMR don't want could presumably be modded to 350/1 or 450 capability for running on 750V DC. I imagine Alstom must be near to the end of class 730 build now, so it is commissioning them and getting them into service - within a year ?.

It'd still involve work to make them 3rd rail compatible plus if there are delays in the 730 introduction then that'd mean more delays with them being transferred. Also, as much as they'd be a nice step up they're not exactly suited to "metro" services with their slow doors etc.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Also, as much as they'd be a nice step up they're not exactly suited to "metro" services with their slow doors etc.

Trains with slow doors are infinitely preferable to trains that sit in sidings, throw a tantrum anytime they’re near entry into service - sometimes so extreme you can’t even walk by them when they’re turned on!

The 701 debacle is a complete embarrassment and should be taught as how not to manage a project.

 

[Goldfish62]

throw a tantrum anytime they’re near entry into service - sometimes so extreme you can’t even walk by them when they’re turned on!

Yes, that's particularly odd given it's no longer an issue on other Aventra fleets.

 

[TEW]

Yes, that's particularly odd given it's no longer an issue on other Aventra fleets.

A fix is now being applied to the 701s and they will be able to be left powered up when berthed again.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

The vast majority, very vast majority in fact, so run as 8 coach. Running 4 coach is unsuitable for South London metro services they provide.

I agree that it's unsuitable for a metro service but that doesn't stop it happening

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The vast majority, very vast majority in fact, so run as 8 coach. Running 4 coach is unsuitable for South London metro services they provide.

This is definitely false for Sundays, just to clarify.
Many, many single 455s on Guildford via Cobham, Epsom and sometimes Weybridge on Sundays.

 

[TEW]

This is definitely false for Sundays, just to clarify.
Many, many single 455s on Guildford via Cobham, Epsom and sometimes Weybridge on Sundays.

The Guildford via Cobham and 4 of 5 Guildford via Epsom/ Chessington diagrams on a Sunday are booked 4-455, so 7 diagrams in total. That's it all week though so it's fair to say the vast majority run as 8 cars. Short formations of the 8 car diagrams are pretty rare too.

 

[swr444]

The Guildford via Cobham and 4 of 5 Guildford via Epsom/ Chessington diagrams on a Sunday are booked 4-455, so 7 diagrams in total. That's it all week though so it's fair to say the vast majority run as 8 cars. Short formations of the 8 car diagrams are pretty rare too.

There were no 4 cars today as far as I’m aware, seems to be hit and miss

 

[TEW]

There were no 4 cars today as far as I’m aware, seems to be hit and miss

Yes, because of engineering work today limiting capacity at Guildford the diagrams were a bit different and all ran as 8 cars.

 

[cactustwirly]

As a local to SWR (like I know you are yourself) I’m grateful for them not doing so, as this would no doubt mean at least another three years before the knackered 455s finally begin to be replaced, and the 707s really will have to go to SE at some point. If the 701s are not in service by three years I will retract this statement humbly with good will, but I don’t think it’ll seriously be three more years.


And this is what, the six-hundred-and-forty-eighth time this same (speculative) idea has now raised its head? It must be the most commonly suggested idea on the forum, that and unfeasible Meridians on Liverpool Norwich.

I'm also a local to SWR, and glad the 701s are delayed so my local line stays 458 and 450 operated

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Will these trains actually enter service at some point at all?

 

[800001]

Will these trains actually enter service at some point at all?

Yes

 

[Western Sunset]

This one worked down to Poole on test/driver training last Tuesday... At least two others were at BM depot.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm also a local to SWR, and glad the 701s are delayed so my local line stays 458 and 450 operated

Yes, selfish you!

 

[Invincible]

if there are delays in the 730 introduction then that'd mean more delays with them being transferred. Also, as much as they'd be a nice step up they're not exactly suited to "metro" services with their slow doors etc.

I expect WMR are watching what happens with the 701s if the 730s will be delayed and 350s are kept a bit longer?
But does not look like the 730 departs from the Aventra design as much as the 701?.
I expect SWR want to get an in service date for the 701s on the Windsor/Reading line asap.

Looks like trying to update the old MK3 and LU D78 emus like 769s and 230s has not been going as well as expected.
The proposed Porterbrook future upgrade to the soon to be ex WMR Siemens Desiro 350/2s, when released and still have life left, to battery power may be a solution to replacing some of the older DMUs on various non suburban lines, if GWR's Greenford battery test works. The advantage for SWR using them to replace 158s, where door closing speed is not critical, is they already have Desiro maintenance facilities.

Keeping the Alstom Aventra production at Derby going will also be a sensative political issue, to lose all 100% UK build EMU production in the UK will not be good. The possibility of putting battery or Hydrogen power into future new build Aventras to also replace older DMUs, as Eversholt are suggesting, is a possibility.

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK

www.alstom.com

 

[jhy44]

I really really hope these are in service by July. The un-airconditioned 455s are unbearable when standing packed in like sardines in the summer heat and I was hoping (perhaps naively) that last summer was the last one we'd have to endure.

 

[TEW]

I really really hope these are in service by July. The un-airconditioned 455s are unbearable when standing packed in like sardines in the summer heat and I was hoping (perhaps naively) that last summer was the last one we'd have to endure.

I certainly wouldn't expect any to have replaced 455s by July.

 

[Snow1964]

I certainly wouldn't expect any to have replaced 455s by July.

Might be some on Windsor services by then (or might still be none).

But it is interesting question, how long would it take to modify each train, if kit of parts were available. Presumably after first few the modification teams could get much quicker as they will have learnt what to do. Without wanting to speculate on size of modification teams, could they potentially do one or two trains per day, or will it more like one or two per week once they have learned the process.

Potentially after a slower start, modified & rectified trains, could become available at rate of few per week. But how quickly could SWR use them as majority of crews not yet trained up.

Of course original delivery schedule was first ones Autumn 2019, about third in service 3 years ago (March 2020), last ones into service by December 2020.

 

[Elorith]

I really really hope these are in service by July. The un-airconditioned 455s are unbearable when standing packed in like sardines in the summer heat and I was hoping (perhaps naively) that last summer was the last one we'd have to endure.

There's no chance now

 

[Peter Sarf]

Might be some on Windsor services by then (or might still be none).

But it is interesting question, how long would it take to modify each train, if kit of parts were available. Presumably after first few the modification teams could get much quicker as they will have learnt what to do. Without wanting to speculate on size of modification teams, could they potentially do one or two trains per day, or will it more like one or two per week once they have learned the process.

Potentially after a slower start, modified & rectified trains, could become available at rate of few per week. But how quickly could SWR use them as majority of crews not yet trained up.

Of course original delivery schedule was first ones Autumn 2019, about third in service 3 years ago (March 2020), last ones into service by December 2020.

What is this modification ?.
Are there more than one ?.

 

[TEW]

Potentially after a slower start, modified & rectified trains, could become available at rate of few per week. But how quickly could SWR use them as majority of crews not yet trained up.

Crew training hasn't started yet and I don't believe it's about to either.

 

[Goldfish62]

What is this modification ?.
Are there more than one ?.

That was also my query. As far as has been reported it's simply software issues that are holding everything up.

 

[Class455]

Saw a 701 in Wembley Yard earlier when I was passing by on an LNW 319. They really are storing these in every location possible

 

[IndianPacific]

Crew training hasn't started yet and I don't believe it's about to either.

How long roughly would that take (say from an announcement saying the problems are resolved, or someone spotting driver training going on)?

Like jhy44 I'm dreading another summer on the 455s! It's depressing to know new trains are still seasons away.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

How long roughly would that take (say from an announcement saying the problems are resolved, or someone spotting driver training going on)?

Like jhy44 I'm dreading another summer on the 455s! It's depressing to know new trains are still seasons away.

Crew training in general can take months. It's a long process with many things to learn and remember.

 

[Goldfish62]

Crew training in general can take months. It's a long process with many things to learn and remember.

It's stated on another thread that training is about to start on the Class 730s, with service entry expected in May.

So about two months then.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It would depend on the numbers of (crew) depots to be trained and the establishment figures for each, and taking in to account percentage of bodies taking leave, on company days etc, during the training period, which will also have a slight knock-on in relation to training schedules. Based on the originally planned usage of 701s, SW will need to 'train' train crews from six depots (as it was), which excludes Feltham as a crew depot in it's own right, so seven in all in effect, or the equivalent number of bodies from same.

 

[Goldfish62]

It would depend on the numbers of (crew) depots to be trained and the establishment figures for each, and taking in to account percentage of bodies taking leave, on company days etc, during the training period, which will also have a slight knock-on in relation to training schedules. Based on the originally planned usage of 701s, SW will need to 'train' train crews from six depots (as it was), which excludes Feltham as a crew depot in it's own right, so seven in all in effect, or the equivalent number of bodies from same.

Unless they're going to go down the road of training all crews at all depots before they introduce a single train just to ensure that service entry is delayed even further surely it won't be any different from what's gone before. It's been stated several times by SWR that the first trains will be introduced on the Windsor Lines, specifically the Windsor line then the Reading line.

From memory it was around 2-3 months for the 707s. The first train actually ran in service on the Reading line as a one-off special. Progressive service entry then started on the Windsor line shortly afterwards.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Re the 707's an initial one off run had to be completed by a certain date to meet contract requirements. This had been the same for the 458/5 conversion. The first full (707) diagram to enter service was planned for the 0558 Waterloo-Windsor (etc) diagram, deliberately designed as such to match the first 458/5 diagram in to service, as a way of (new stock) continuity for the benefit of depot and other on the ground staff. I can't comment on if that (707) did in fact happen, as was planned.

The crew training would likely be designed in a similar manner, to match the stock roll out, so therefore a minimal number of crews trained initially to get the first units in to service. But to give an idea of crew availability, to operate that one first (0558) diagram, all day, five (SX) days per week, they will probably need as a bare minimum six crews fully trained, early, late, cover for breaks on both early and late and stand by cover for add hoc leave, sickness (on both shifts). With that, and the gradual roll out, there will become an increasing need for a (seemingly) disproportionally large number of bodies to be taken off booked work to be trained on the new type as time progresses.

This other work does not go away, and has to be covered one way or other. May be with the consequences of covid (reduced service), this time around things may be slightly easier, but who knows. Not involved any more!

Edit: IIRC additional drivers did have to be taken on during the 458/5 roll out to cover any shortfalls during training, albeit for some people the 458/5 was no more than a refresher, but this was justified as these extras would be needed for the 707 (and as it happened the 456) introduction, albeit again, the 456 was more aligned with 455 knowledge.

Edit: The above is of course written from a historical sense. The 701's are of a New company, new ideas, so things may be different.